PIR Code 2 questions

[Iwonder]

Hi, i've searched the forum and there seems to be conflicting opinions. i would be eternally grateful for some clarification:

I've had a PIR just done, mainly code 2s. there are some i am not sure i need to do and even i want to do!

CU = 100Amp, 2 floor flat.

1 x 40amp RCBO for cooker and hob
1x 32am RCBO Shower
1x 32mp RCBO shower
2 x 32AMP sockets (edited to add word "RCBO")
2 x 6amps RCBO lights
1 x immersion heater 20amp RCBO (not used, to be taken out, new combi with no water storage)
1 x 6amp RCBO for doorbell (edited to add this)

Code 2's

1) Dishwasher/Fridge sockets behind appliances. Is this a code 2, would this mean i need to move sockets so that they are accessible? would look really odd, but if so, safety outweighs how it would look.

2) No doorbell isolator - although it has it's own RCBO

3) No emergency lights isolator - on lighting circuit with RCBO

4) no fan isolator in bathroom or cooker hood. on radial circuit (?) with RCBO

thank you

 

[riveralt]

The problem with PIR's is that are subjective and open to interpretation.
When conducting PIR's I always refer to this document which explains what each code means with specific examples.
http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/industry/best_practice/BPG4_08.pdf

Based on this document it is difficult to justify code 2 to any of the items you have listed - some of the isolation issues may breach manufacturers instructions which would put it under code 4.

Seperate to the PIR though I would have examined your suppliers fuse size since your potential load may well exceed its capabilities.
Suppliers in this area insist on notification if two electric showers are fitted to a property, especially if the suppliers fuse is 80Amps or less.

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[JohnW2]

The problem with PIR's is that are subjective and open to interpretation.
When conducting PIR's I always refer to this document which explains what each code means with specific examples.
http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/industry/best_practice/BPG4_08.pdf
Based on this document it is difficult to justify code 2 to any of the items you have listed - some of the isolation issues may breach manufacturers instructions which would put it under code 4.

Indeed, but don't you feel that those codings had gone beyond reasonable 'subjective and open to interpretation'? If that PIR had been done for me, with those codings, I would be very annoyed and would be questioning the competence (in the true sense) or, at least the competence:jobsworth ratio, of the person who had produced the PIR!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Paul_C]

Ditto for me, too. I don't see anything in that list which would warrant a code 2.

 

[Iwonder]

Seperate to the PIR though I would have examined your suppliers fuse size since your potential load may well exceed its capabilities.
Suppliers in this area insist on notification if two electric showers are fitted to a property, especially if the suppliers fuse is 80Amps or less.

thank you all so much for all the info, just digesting it.

on the above note, re potential load, what would remedy this? do i need a sepepate consumer unit? just thinking wouldnt both of them be on same 100amp mains fuse? or would i need a totally seperate seconds mains connection?

would you have expected this to mentioned in the PIR? just thinking if the guy thought it was ok for reason i dont know about?

thank you.

 

[Iwonder]

The problem with PIR's is that are subjective and open to interpretation.
When conducting PIR's I always refer to this document which explains what each code means with specific examples.
http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/industry/best_practice/BPG4_08.pdf
Based on this document it is difficult to justify code 2 to any of the items you have listed - some of the isolation issues may breach manufacturers instructions which would put it under code 4.

Indeed, but don't you feel that those codings had gone beyond reasonable 'subjective and open to interpretation'? If that PIR had been done for me, with those codings, I would be very annoyed and would be questioning the competence (in the true sense) or, at least the competence:jobsworth ratio, of the person who had produced the PIR!

Kind Regards, John.

I did ask a number of times, whether code 2 might i should get them carried out asap. the electrician say "no, only if you want to". but to me that meant, they were advisory? but reading the back of the paperwork says i should remedy as soon as possible?

i see what you mean by subjective, but difficult to know for us end users. I'm not anal about electrical being right, but i want to make sure my family is protected the best i can. but difficult to draw a line with this isolator stuff. i understand that the isolator is there in case i want to change the bulb say on the emergency lights, but i am balancing this against how odd it would look and the costs. sorry i'm waffling now!

 

[Iwonder]

Seperate to the PIR though I would have examined your suppliers fuse size since your potential load may well exceed its capabilities.
Suppliers in this area insist on notification if two electric showers are fitted to a property, especially if the suppliers fuse is 80Amps or less.

rough calculation

sockets 32amp: 1st floor sockets 10 double socket
sockets: 32amp: 2nd floor 6 double sockets
showers, seperate 32amp 1x 8.5kw and 1 x 8.5kw
cooker 40amp 28amp for hob + 10amps oven
lights mostly led or energy efficient, but approx 9 60w (8w LEDs)

 

[riveralt]

Seperate to the PIR though I would have examined your suppliers fuse size since your potential load may well exceed its capabilities.
Suppliers in this area insist on notification if two electric showers are fitted to a property, especially if the suppliers fuse is 80Amps or less.

thank you all so much for all the info, just digesting it.
on the above note, re potential load, what would remedy this? do i need a sepepate consumer unit? just thinking wouldnt both of them be on same 100amp mains fuse? or would i need a totally seperate seconds mains connection?

No - Most electrical shower manufacturers indicate that fitting a second shower may be a problem if the suppliers main fuse is rated at 80Amps or less. If your main fuse is 100Amps then there should not be an issue.

would you have expected this to mentioned in the PIR? just thinking if the guy thought it was ok for reason i dont know about?

Not if your main fuse is 100Amps.

 

[JohnW2]

I did ask a number of times, whether code 2 might i should get them carried out asap. the electrician say "no, only if you want to". but to me that meant, they were advisory? but reading the back of the paperwork says i should remedy as soon as possible?

Doesn't really make sense - those things should not have been documented as Code 2 and there should be no recommendation to remedy them as soon as possible.

i see what you mean by subjective, but difficult to know for us end users. I'm not anal about electrical being right, but i want to make sure my family is protected the best i can. but difficult to draw a line with this isolator stuff. i understand that the isolator is there in case i want to change the bulb say on the emergency lights, but i am balancing this against how odd it would look and the costs.

As I said, I personally think it goes beyond 'subjective' into the realms of 'wrong'. It is to some degree subjective, but I do not personally regard any of those points as being significant safety risks. I would sleep happily with any of those things in my house and, indeed, I'm sure that I do have some examples of them. If it were me, I would not be in any hurry at all (if any) to do anything about those 'Code 2's. Indeed, if it weren't for the question of money, it would be interesting to get another PIR done (by someone else!) - in which case I think it's extremely likel that all those Code 2s would magically disappear.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[crystal ball]

I recently rectified a list of code 1s & 2s on a PIR, most of which were missing mixed colour code labels,

 

[JohnW2]

I recently rectified a list of code 1s & 2s on a PIR, most of which were missing mixed colour code labels,

I'm not surprised, but it's obviously a cause for concern. It's almost a daily event in forums such as this for someone to be advised to get a PIR/EICR done. In theory, that's very reasonable advice, but it's clear that the profession needs to get their house in order before Joe Public can have confidence in what a PIR/EICR says.

Sure, it's hopefully only a small number that are very iffy. One also hopes that they tend to err on the side of caution, but I don't doubt that some err the other way, which is particularly worrying.

Kind Regards, John.