Planning permission for fence (restrospective) refused!

[rjm2k]

My wife spoke to the planning officer who came out and she said she was very nice. Loved the fence and and said retrospective planning shouldn't be a problem.

STOP thinking the planning lady is nice, there is no such thing. Planners are there to stop development end of story, it's the only way they can justify being there, if they let all development go ahead, why bother having planning?

The strange thing is the same lady emailed me back after the refusal to ask if I wished to now lower the fence! (obviously they don't speak to one another). I wrote back politely last week saying height was not mentioned in the actual refusal at all.

Yes, strange that isn't it! Height doesn't need to be part of the refusal, you HAD to apply because of height, they have refused on other grounds. If your reduce the height they can do nothing.

As far as I am aware I have Permitted Development rights and we are not in a conservation or any other special area. One point though my house used to belong to the railway (we bought over two years ago on the open market),

I would guess looking at the house that you do have PD rights and the fact that they have allowed your neighbour to put that fence up seems to confirm it (2m allowed if more than 2m away from the road).

the psycho's house next door used to be council and they bought under 'right to buy' scheme. Our nice neighbour on the other side of the overgrown hedge rents from the council I believe.

The mix of old railway/council is a bit odd if they are terraced but I guess the council could have taken them off or supplied them for the railway.

Who owns the grass strip and how far back is the fence from the highway? I believe you are allowed upto 2m if 2m or more from the "highway".

Options

Talk to the contractor about reducing the height of the fence, they will probably be able to do something.

Hack the fence yourself

Appeal the refusal, say that the fence pays hommage to the railway (lots of stations had that kind of fencing) and doesn't obscure any view etc
I'm sure you can find plenty of cottage/railway properties with similar fences... http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-21302409.html

Do nothing, let the council decide whether or not to enforce over a minor breach. The fact that your neighbour has the huge fence (though running in a different direction) right next to your fence I would hope any enforcement you appeal against would take note of.

One more thing though and don't be offended by this, it appears that trouble follows you, that may just be a very unfortunate set of circumstances but sometimes people need to take a step back and think about their actions and what the consequences may be. From what I can make out you objected to your neighbour attaching to your "party wall", could this have stirred up the problems in the first place? Not that I'm saying you weren't within your rights, it's just that sadly some people don't play fairly! It's clear that your family are very important to you and sometimes it's worth sacrificing a battle to win the war

The whole setup of your bigger story sounds very very very strange, I hope it improves! Be careful out there!

 

[tony1851]

STOP thinking the planning lady is nice, there is no such thing. Planners are there to stop development end of story, it's the only way they can justify being there, if they let all development go ahead, why bother having planning?

This should be a "sticky" heading up the Building Regulations and Planning section.

 

[arakis777]

When the planning officer came out she said we had to

If she'd have said that you had to stick a broom handle up your backside so that you could sweep the floor while walking, would you have done so?

No one can order anyone to submit a planning application - it is not a criminal offence not to.

The fact that the excess height was not one of the grounds for refusal is neither here nor there. You should not have given the council the opportunity to refuse p.p. - for whatever reason - in the first place.
Chances are that they wouldn't have pursued it had you sent them a firmly-worded letter.

To be honest like most people I don't know all my rights. I was informed by several people if I didn't apply for the retrospective planning permission, the council would come out and lower / move it and charge you the expense of doing so.

I think the council are playing on people's fears. We are where we are I am just looking for a way to appeal successfully or come to a compromise with the council if possible

 

[tony1851]

To be honest like most people I don't know all my rights. I was informed by several people if I didn't apply for the retrospective planning permission, the council would come out and lower / move it and charge you the expense of doing so.

I think the council are playing on people's fears. We are where we are I am just looking for a way to appeal successfully or come to a compromise with the council if possible

Unfortunately this is true, and councils do take advantage of this.

But the council can not just turn up one morning with sledge hammers to remove your fence - there has to be a due legal process, which takes time.

Why not just leave it now, and see what the council come up with - it's highly unlikely they would take enforcement action without warning you first. Then write back and say you believe the breach of the pd rules is minor (re the height) and that in all other respects it complies.

 

[arakis777]

To be honest like most people I don't know all my rights. I was informed by several people if I didn't apply for the retrospective planning permission, the council would come out and lower / move it and charge you the expense of doing so.

I think the council are playing on people's fears. We are where we are I am just looking for a way to appeal successfully or come to a compromise with the council if possible

Unfortunately this is true, and councils do take advantage of this.

But the council can not just turn up one morning with sledge hammers to remove your fence - there has to be a due legal process, which takes time.

Why not just leave it now, and see what the council come up with - it's highly unlikely they would take enforcement action without warning you first. Then write back and say you believe the breach of the pd rules is minor (re the height) and that in all other respects it complies.

Well yes, I could do nothing for now, but I have only 10 weeks left to appeal (refusal was at start of the month). If the council don't get back within that 10 weeks I will have lost my chance to appeal. If I reduce height to 1 metre or under they still might say it breaches section 64 and they still demand I move it back 5 feet paint it brown or black and out a darned hedge in place. This situation is crazy.

 

[arakis777]

My wife spoke to the planning officer who came out and she said she was very nice. Loved the fence and and said retrospective planning shouldn't be a problem.

STOP thinking the planning lady is nice, there is no such thing. Planners are there to stop development end of story, it's the only way they can justify being there, if they let all development go ahead, why bother having planning?

I take your point, she actually spoke to my wife. We must be a bit naive.

The strange thing is the same lady emailed me back after the refusal to ask if I wished to now lower the fence! (obviously they don't speak to one another). I wrote back politely last week saying height was not mentioned in the actual refusal at all.

Yes, strange that isn't it! Height doesn't need to be part of the refusal, you HAD to apply because of height, they have refused on other grounds. If your reduce the height they can do nothing.

Are you sure? lowering height would mean cutting it on both sides, this would be expensive to do and the results could be awful. Anyway the council could well say yeah height was OK but we still want you to move it paint it and stick a stupid hedge back in front of it.

As far as I am aware I have Permitted Development rights and we are not in a conservation or any other special area. One point though my house used to belong to the railway (we bought over two years ago on the open market),

I would guess looking at the house that you do have PD rights and the fact that they have allowed your neighbour to put that fence up seems to confirm it (2m allowed if more than 2m away from the road).

We are definitely over 2m from the edge of the raised road to the border of our garden. There are all types of structures on our road, hence why we are bewildered by the refusal.

the psycho's house next door used to be council and they bought under 'right to buy' scheme. Our nice neighbour on the other side of the overgrown hedge rents from the council I believe.

The mix of old railway/council is a bit odd if they are terraced but I guess the council could have taken them off or supplied them for the railway.

I believe they were all railway owned at some stage and some were solf to the council, most of the houses now on the road were always in private hands.

Who owns the grass strip and how far back is the fence from the highway? I believe you are allowed upto 2m if 2m or more from the "highway".

We own the grass strip dirtectly in front of the fence, the grass beyond the pavement is council owned (it slopes up towards the road). The very front edge of our garden is definitely more than 2Metres from the road.

Options

Talk to the contractor about reducing the height of the fence, they will probably be able to do something.

We could do but I would hate to think of the costs and results.

Hack the fence yourself

No way, I would make a right mess of it. I am not a hands of person, rather get someone else to do DIY where possible.

Appeal the refusal, say that the fence pays hommage to the railway (lots of stations had that kind of fencing) and doesn't obscure any view etc
I'm sure you can find plenty of cottage/railway properties with similar fences... http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-21302409.html

Could do as that is all completely true, not to mention the fact the neighbours bar one all love and will be happy to signa petition

Do nothing, let the council decide whether or not to enforce over a minor breach. The fact that your neighbour has the huge fence (though running in a different direction) right next to your fence I would hope any enforcement you appeal against would take note of.

Risky as someone said earlier I could plant some hedge in front of the fence for now and ............. .......


One more thing though and don't be offended by this, it appears that trouble follows you, that may just be a very unfortunate set of circumstances but sometimes people need to take a step back and think about their actions and what the consequences may be. From what I can make out you objected to your neighbour attaching to your "party wall", could this have stirred up the problems in the first place? Not that I'm saying you weren't within your rights, it's just that sadly some people don't play fairly! It's clear that your family are very important to you and sometimes it's worth sacrificing a battle to win the war

To be honest we have always got on very well with neighbours wherever we live and the same is true here apart from next door. I only reported party wall incident after he attacked my wife, he put the structure up about two months before the attack. We never reported him for anything before the attack, even though we had grounds to. The council said to go civil on him for the party wall issue - like I have several thousand pound spare to do that. He and his partner have always been trouble on the street according to the neghbours. We have just been very unfortunate to have bought next to them. Not all things have turned out bad though - I just got a new job working mostly from home and will get paid more than an MP. I worked hard for it though.

The whole setup of your bigger story sounds very very very strange, I hope it improves! Be careful out there!

It is strange but let's just say the issue is not just him but some friends in the local police, there is an ongoing so can't say too much here.

My wife and I are fairly new here - just over two years but we suspect some local police might be bad mouthing us to the council or maybe we are just being paranoid. Anyway we have hard evidence of police collusion with the couple next door and it is being invetigated.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

STOP thinking the planning lady is nice, there is no such thing. Planners are there to stop development end of story, it's the only way they can justify being there, if they let all development go ahead, why bother having planning?

This should be a "sticky" heading up the Building Regulations and Planning section.

Yea blah blah blah you guys make me laugh, I think I've had one refusal in the last 4 years. You guys are obviously submitting completely unacceptable stuff to get so much grief from them.

 

[arakis777]

STOP thinking the planning lady is nice, there is no such thing. Planners are there to stop development end of story, it's the only way they can justify being there, if they let all development go ahead, why bother having planning?

This should be a "sticky" heading up the Building Regulations and Planning section.

Yea blah blah blah you guys make me laugh, I think I've had one refusal in the last 4 years. You guys are obviously submitting completely unacceptable stuff to get so much grief from them.

I hope I haven't started a war of words off here. I can see both sides I personally have a lot of time for council officials, many of whom are officious and devoid of common sense.

 

[rjm2k]

Yea blah blah blah you guys make me laugh, I think I've had one refusal in the last 4 years. You guys are obviously submitting completely unacceptable stuff to get so much grief from them.

Probably because they know that you know what buttons to push and how to deal with them.

Can you explain how the OPs fence (which despite my initial thoughts I think looks ok after seeing it) fails due to the reasons they gave?

"National Planning Policy Framework

Section 64

Permission should be refused for development of poor design that fails to take the opportunities available for improving the character and quality of an area and the way it functions"

That's very subjective stuff, one person may think the fence is great, another may not, it certainly looks a lot nicer than the fence next door.

Do you think that this particular paragraph is aimed at small picket fences in an individual properties front garden, or perhaps at larger scale development which has a much larger affect on an area? I think the policy in this instance has been applied out of context.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

I think it looks horrific. Absolutely awful. Terrible.

 

[arakis777]

I think it looks horrific. Absolutely awful. Terrible.

You should work for the council

 

[tony1851]

I think I've had one refusal in the last 4 years.

Right. If you say 'yes, sir, no sir, three bags full, sir', to the planning officer, then any application will get approval.

The trick is to go for the maximum, and work back from there - not
to supinely agree to what they want.
Remember, if you want 4m, they will cut you back to 3; if you submit an application for 3m, they will cut you down to 2.5m. etc. They have to do this to justify their existence and to make it look as though they are actually doing something.
Despite what they say, planners are generally anti-development.

 

[rjm2k]

I think it looks horrific. Absolutely awful. Terrible.

Really, how about this?

this

or even this eyesore?

What is it that you think looks so bad, so much worse than the 6foot brown fence next door?


and yet, things like this get awards

 

[arakis777]

Yea blah blah blah you guys make me laugh, I think I've had one refusal in the last 4 years. You guys are obviously submitting completely unacceptable stuff to get so much grief from them.

Probably because they know that you know what buttons to push and how to deal with them.

Can you explain how the OPs fence (which despite my initial thoughts I think looks ok after seeing it) fails due to the reasons they gave?

"National Planning Policy Framework

Section 64

Permission should be refused for development of poor design that fails to take the opportunities available for improving the character and quality of an area and the way it functions"

That's very subjective stuff, one person may think the fence is great, another may not, it certainly looks a lot nicer than the fence next door.

Do you think that this particular paragraph is aimed at small picket fences in an individual properties front garden, or perhaps at larger scale development which has a much larger affect on an area? I think the policy in this instance has been applied out of context.

I couldn't agree more. You can notice next door psycho has put the bad side of his fence facing out. It really makes his place look as if there are permanent building works going on. He mentioned to the council that he objected to our fence as he wanted to put up the same fence which is 2metres on the front also and this was refused. We all know he objected to our fence out of spite. His fence really looks crap and is suited for back gardens in my opinion. His front looks really crap as it is without adding another panel.

 

[rjm2k]

Yes picket fences look beautiful if appropriate. As for what gets rewarded, its not my fault you don't understand architecture.

Where is the definition of where things are and aren't appropriate? Where is the definition of "Good Design"? Why is it that the same application can be approved/refused depending on the planning officer, the day , the direction the wind is blowing? Why is it that only freddymercurystwin's view of what is good or horrible is the one that counts?

If liking many of the modern developments that get thrown up these days means I have to "understand architecture" then i'm quite happy in my "ignorance"

OP, do some research on your local councils website, they should have published design guides etc, see what their guide says. Also, search their online planning application site for other similar developments and also any enforcements/appeals related to them. I once saw an application quibbled over because a grass verge at the side of a driveway wasn't "wide enough", when the councils own street design guide said there was no need for one anyway and the drive was already wider than the minimum they required!

I would appeal, if that fails, I would either shorted the fence or if you want more stress, let them enforce this minor and subjective breach and appeal the enforcement. I would also seriously look at moving, life is too short.