Plaster / plasterboard / render advice

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Seems we understood this was a kitchen from the start and your breathable aggregate advice was misleading.

Don't know what your agenda is on here peaps but I suspect your from another forum and are just trying to bring this one down. All u seem to interested in is to turn each thread into a bun fight rather than help the original poster.

The only thing you're suceeding in doing is driving away people looking for help and the people offering it, maybe u should google 'internet forum' and get yourself a better understanding of what they're about.

Not at all, I give sound advice and because it contradicts others they come back all in a hissy fit. Ah but dave, joe and yourself are all buddies so it's of no surprise you have have a go at the one giving advice and ignore the one trolling my advice.

If you have a problem with the advice I give you have the chance to debunk it but you can't because it's technically correct.

I understand how forums work, in a diy forum you give advice and if you think advice others post in wrong then you post the correct advice, backing it up with advice from other specialists adds weight to the advice.

If you had cared to read anything I~ have posted about "wet builds" then you would not be able to better understand plastering is not just throwing bonding on the wall....

Can you provide evidence of this driving away? I for one am in contact with a few who I have given advice to on here, one I will be going to help out sometime soon, for free that is. I have done other work from here, for free.

I have also had people tell me a certain person PMed them slagging me off but after further advice they PMed me for advice because this person was making life difficult in the forum...

So this kitchen is lime rendered, bonding on this wall will lift due to the moisture from the lime as it's intended, this will cause adhesion problems as advised by British Gypsum.

You assume that if you apply gypsum to a wall it will go damp because I advised it promotes damp..? Well if you would have read some of the articles I have posted you would realise that the plastered wall, sealed wall, is not forced to go damp but push the moisture to other areas.
 
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So Peaps, what you are saying is that the op has to use a lime plaster to fix the problem ?. Ok fair enough, where is he, or a plasterer going to get this ?, at what cost ?, how long will the job take ?....at the end of the day it,s a simple patch job, and any plasterer who does this job will use bonding, or hardwall.
How many plasterers on here have patched up old houses that have been skimmed in lime, with no problems, using gypsum plasters ?, probably all of them on here. Stop reading bullshite on the internet and get in the real world.
 
So Peaps, what you are saying is that the op has to use a lime plaster to fix the problem ?. Ok fair enough, where is he, or a plasterer going to get this ?, at what cost ?, how long will the job take ?....at the end of the day it,s a simple patch job, and any plasterer who does this job will use bonding, or hardwall.
How many plasterers on here have patched up old houses that have been skimmed in lime, with no problems, using gypsum plasters ?, probably all of them on here. Stop reading bullshite on the internet and get in the real world.

Spent my working life in the real world mate. From what you post it's very clear you haven't :rolleyes:

You are a cowboy.
 
Peaps this site is not here for you to pedestal your supposedly superior knowledge on the merits of traditional lime plastering, or your limited knowledge of building physics!!

Any one of us here can copy/ paste the generic literature you post.

In certain circumstances yes it is wholly appropriate to reinstate lime plaster as it was intended in its capacity to allow the fabric of the building to breath.
This is all elementary processes and one of the first modules tackled in college construction managers courses which underlines the importance of maintaining the fabric of traditional buildings sympathetically.

Im not disagreeing with the advice you give in certain circumstances, though stating that not using your proposed methods universally will lead to the ultimate deterioration of peoples properties is both misleading, incorrect, and scaremongering.

We can all spout technical data.

Why are you on here peaps? if to grandstand your talents to your fellow peers you aint doing a very good job .

It is perfectly acceptable practice to use bonding, browning or hardwall plaster etc to patch a traditional lime plastered dwelling within reason without any adverse effects.

We dont use wattle and daub anymore peaps.
 
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I am afraid that if dazdel is a "cowboy " then this forum should be called The DIY Ranch, as I also have never used lime to the extent that you promote it. I have been plastering and rendering for over 30 years and can tell you now that most of my customers could never afford to go down the "Real way to plaster is with lime route", that you are promoting and obviously either doing or are very good at "googling". Most of the people who are asking our advice are the men and woman on the street that want information about how to get the job done and I would think as most of the people want to do the work theirselves, then they may be on a budget. Plastering forums have been going for lots of years with good advice from the likes of all the guys that are on here and when some one comes along like yourself that dis-spells all the advice that we give then it is no wonder that we dont come on to be "belittled" by someone like yourself that trys to make us look like we dont know what we are talking about. I do not belittle you, with your knowledge or lots of the other lads dont, but I think you should be on a "specialist" form that requires the skills that you profess to have, and let normal guys like ourselves get on and "Enjoy" giving people the benefit of the "skills" that have worked for us and the people we give them to ,for the years that we have been doing it..
 
Well put Roy! ;) He doesnt have any more superior knowledge than us...on the contrary...copy/paste is his best friend
 
Any paint that is wipe-able is non breathable. That takes about 98% of houses out of the breathable category. I can't remember the last time I went to a house that had breathable paint, breathable mortar, no DPC etc etc.

I lived in one once - and it was that damp the windows streamed.

Give it a rest eh Peaps?
 
Any paint that is wipe-able is non breathable. That takes about 98% of houses out of the breathable category. I can't remember the last time I went to a house that had breathable paint, breathable mortar, no DPC etc etc.

I lived in one once - and it was that damp the windows streamed.

Give it a rest eh Peaps?

Mmm, isn't that the whole point and what's causing the problems....

I do remember making the point of paints that came into play in the late 50s early 60s not to mention cement and gypsum based plasters :rolleyes:

Take a leaf out of your own book and give it a rest eh joe?
 
Peaps this site is not here for you to pedestal your supposedly superior knowledge on the merits of traditional lime plastering, or your limited knowledge of building physics!!

Neither is it here for you and your gang to push other contributors around because they don't agree with some advice you your gang give. If I don't agree I will post my advice backing it up when needed, you don't hold a monopoly on the site just because you have been around a while you know.

Any one of us here can copy/ paste the generic literature you post.

Yes they can but I don't see you backing up contested advice, put up or shut I say. Doesn't matter where the info comes from fact is they all have very impressive credentials and many years experience in the field. Trying to make out I know nothing other than googling is pathetic to say the least.

In certain circumstances yes it is wholly appropriate to reinstate lime plaster as it was intended in its capacity to allow the fabric of the building to breath.
This is all elementary processes and one of the first modules tackled in college construction managers courses which underlines the importance of maintaining the fabric of traditional buildings sympathetically.

Traditional wet plastering is no longer part of the plastering training.

Im not disagreeing with the advice you give in certain circumstances, though stating that not using your proposed methods universally will lead to the ultimate deterioration of peoples properties is both misleading, incorrect, and scaremongering.

Prove it.

We can all spout technical data.

Yes we can but I,m waiting for you to start spouting some rather than whining.

Why are you on here peaps? if to grandstand your talents to your fellow peers you aint doing a very good job .

To offer my advice as a traditional wet plastering specialist, only grandstanding I see comes from you and your gang.

It is perfectly acceptable practice to use bonding, browning or hardwall plaster etc to patch a traditional lime plastered dwelling within reason without any adverse effects.

No it isn't, it might be for you but that's why we have a problem with older buildings, too many plasterers like yourself giving out bad advice.

Prove me wrong, it's that simple.

We dont use wattle and daub anymore peaps.

Don't remember that discussion.
 
Traditional wet plastering is no longer part of the plastering training

Ok here's a start ;)

Wattle and Daub
Ian Pritchett



A timber framed building with wattle and daub infill, limewashed in the medieval manner

For many people the wonderful irregularities of wattle and daub walls and the undulations of a distorted roofline form part of the attraction of a medieval timber framed building. The walls gain their character from the timber frame which forms the load bearing structure of the building, leaving open areas between that have to be infilled to keep the weather out. The type of infilling varies according to the function and status of the building, its location within the country and the locally available materials. It is probably fair to assume that if a material was readily available and could be adapted for use it would have been used as an infill to a timber framed building at sometime, somewhere.

Wattle and daub is one of the most common infills, easily recognisable by the appearance of irregular and often bulging panels that are normally plastered and painted. It is an arrangement of small timbers (wattle) that form a matrix to support a mud-based daub. The timbers normally fall into two groups, the primary timbers or staves, which are held fast within the frame and the secondary timbers or withies which are nailed or tied to, or woven around the staves. Arrangement and sizes of panels vary from area to area as does the orientation of the staves. The daub was applied simultaneously from both sides in 'cats' (damp, workable balls) pressed into and around the wattle in order to form a homogeneous mass. As the daub dried it was often keyed by scratching or 'pecking'. Once the daub had hardened, the surface was dampened to receive a lime plaster covering. The surface plaster was usually made of lime and sand or other aggregates reinforced with animal hair or plant fibre. The plaster was finished flush, or in some cases, it would continue across the panels and timbers alike. This would allow less important timbers to be concealed and only principal members to be shown. The plaster may be smooth trowelled, rough cast or even parged (incised and/or built up with a pattern or design).
PERFORMANCE

The durability of wattle and daub is illustrated by this wall, still standing after fire burnt the roof off.

A wattle and daub panel in need of repair

The eroded surface of a daub panel revealing its hair and straw binder

Wattle and daub may not be the most rigid material, but therein lies its strength. It is able to accommodate even the most severe structural movement; it is usually well sprung into the timber frame and offers support to weakening timbers that other forms of infill might not. Wattle and daub is not lightweight or flimsy. Its weight is not dissimilar to bricks, however its insulation is better and from a security point of view it can be far more difficult to break through than brick. Although wattle and daub is porous and moisture is absorbed when it rains, moisture levels are kept low because the daub acts like blotting paper to disperse the moisture and because of the high rate of evaporation from its surface.

In moderate, sheltered conditions and if well maintained, a wattle and daub panel should last indefinitely. Examples of 700 years old are known to exist.

Traditional infill panels in timber framed buildings can perform extremely well if properly constructed and maintained. Although in some areas of the country it was normal for infill panels to have protective plaster coatings which extended over the timber frame, it has become fashionable to remove plaster to expose timbers. This is likely to compromise the performance of the building and accelerate the decay of the previously protected structure. It is unreasonable to expect to have a timber frame exposed on both sides and not have draughts and/or some water penetration whether the infill panel is traditional or modern.

Where timber framing was not plastered over it was normal practice to limewash it each spring. Although this was partly for hygienic reasons (being slightly caustic, fresh limewash acts as a mild biocide and disinfectant), it had the tremendous benefit of filling minor cracks caused by seasonal movement. Medieval buildings would have looked quite different from the more recent black and white interpretation that we see so often today.

In some cases weatherboarding or tile hanging may have been added over the infill panels, particularly on exposed gables, to protect them from the weather. Removing the protective covering can lead to the recurrence of old problems all over again. It would he wise to learn from our forebear's experience and consider alterations only after careful thought and for good reasons, not purely on aesthetic grounds.

Decay is often caused by the introduction of hard cement in new renders and repairs, and by the use of modern impervious paints. This is because cement based renders are brittle and often crack, especially at the junction with the timber frame. When it rains, water runs down the face of the panels because both the cement and the modern paints are impervious, soaking right into the wall behind wherever a crack is found. Thus the daub will get wetter and wetter over time, leading to the decay of the timber frame and wattles as well as soggy, unstable daub. Only soft, porous and flexible finishes such as haired lime plaster and lime wash should ever be applied to daub.
REPAIR CONSIDERATIONS

Through the passage of time buildings may become neglected and some damage is inevitable. Knowing whether a damaged panel should be repaired or replaced, even with experience, requires careful consideration, weighing up many factors such as age, importance, rarity, position and function within the building, condition and cost.

Although cost has deliberately been put at the end of this list it will, in many cases, be the deciding factor. Age, importance and rarity can be difficult to define without research, however, bear in mind that all elements of ancient fabric are important and that the loss of any eats away at our heritage.
REPAIR TO WATTLES

Repair to daub can normally be implemented, even in the most extreme cases, providing the wattles are still in good condition or repairable. Whereas repair to a panel where the wattles have been totally consumed by fungal decay or insect attack can be very difficult even where much of the daub/plaster survives. Deterioration may be found in the wattles if they have been damp, particularly if they are not oak or contain sapwood, and hazel seems to be particularly prone to decay by woodworm (common furniture beetle). Wattle panels with insect attack may need some localised treatment, but are often strong enough to carry the daub. Introducing additional support can increase their strength. This can take the form of new staves or withies or timber battens or stainless steel mesh fixed across weakened areas. Each repair will be different, depending on the circumstances. In general finding the right solution is a matter of ingenuity based on the defects and conditions found.

Repair to a wattle panel may not be too difficult if the daub has already fallen away. The wattle behind does not need to be absolutely rigid, but should be strong enough to carry the new daub. It may be necessary to hold the wattle firm whilst applying the new daub.

Where daub is still in place the repair of a wattle panel can be much more challenging. In some cases it may be possible to re-support or re-fix loose daub by using non-ferrous wire ties or screws and washers. In some cases it will be necessary to hold a panel carefully in position, or even totally remove it in one piece, while repairs are carried out to the timber frame, and then put it back. In this case specialist advice is essential if a disaster is to be avoided.
REPAIR TO DAUB

Some shrinkage is normal even in the most successful of historic daubs, and gaps around the edge of the panel are usually caused by a combination of shrinkage within the daub and the timber frame seasoning. These gaps allow the panel to move, so to keep it weathertight they should be filled. They can easily be filled with daub or lime mortar. If problems are experienced with excessive shrinkage it is either because there is too much suction in the existing daub, or the repair mix is unsuitable, but it is always easier to control the shrinkage of a whole panel with the same moisture content. When areas of daub have failed or become detached, they can be repaired by applying new daub to fill the missing areas (after careful preparation and pre-wetting).

Problems can sometimes be overcome by additional wetting of the existing daub or by modifying the repair mix. The ingredients used in an original daub mix were normally used because they were locally available and cheap, they may not have been ideal. Nevertheless the first recommendation for a compatible material would always be to use the original material. Old daub salvaged from damaged panels can be broken up and mixed with a little water to make it useable again. It may be necessary to add additional material to bulk it out, or modify its performance. However, the required performance of a repair mix may be different from the requirement for a whole panel. A useful tip is to mix one part daub with one part of a good coarse lime mortar to achieve a better-behaved material.
NEW DAUB MIXES

Daub is generally made up of a combination of ingredients shown in the table below.
Binders Aggregates Reinforcement Others
Clay Earth Straw Dung
Lime Sand Hair Blood
Chalk Dust Crushed chalk Flax Urine
Limestone dust Crushed stone Hay or grass Dung

The binder holds the mix together, the aggregates give it bulk and dimensional stability, the reinforcement helps hold it all together, control shrinkage and provide long term flexibility. Some locally available materials may contain more than one of the aggregates and other ingredients. For example, subsoil may contain clay, sand and earth. There is some debate over whether dung was deliberately added to daub mixes. It is probably reasonable to assume that the presence of dung in daub mixes was due to using old straw from animal sheds (why use fresh straw when it is valuable for animal bedding?) and using animals to do the hard work of treading the daub.

Historically, daub was a cheap material and lime was relatively expensive, so it is unlikely that lime was included in daub except under special circumstances. It is far more likely that the expensive lime would have been reserved for the plaster and limewash, where it would be necessary.

There are probably as many daub mixes as there are daub buildings. Try experimenting with locally available materials. Remember to only add enough water to make the mix workable, not so much as to cause excessive shrinkage. Another tip is to mix the ingredients (without hair or straw) in advance and leave the mix to 'temper'. It can then be re-mixed when required and the reinforcement added. This will allow any dry ingredients to soak up water and for the whole mix to have an even moisture content.
REPAIR TO SURFACE PLASTER

Where the surface plaster has failed but the daub behind is still sound it is normally possible to repair the plaster. It may be that the whole topcoat to the panel has failed or been removed in the past in which case it will be necessary to replace the whole area. Detached plaster can sometimes be re-secured to the daub behind by means of small stainless steel screws and washers, or re-adhered to the daub surface with a lime mix.

If you are faced with having to repair or replace areas of lime plaster and carry out minor repairs to the daub behind, it may be sensible to consider using lime plaster for the daub repairs as well as the plastering. This is often a sensible approach since it means only having to deal with one type of material and can minimise the shrinkage problems that may occur with small daub repairs.

New woven hazel ready for daubing
REPLACEMENT PANELS

If a wattle and daub panel is beyond repair or missing altogether then a replacement panel will be required. Before removing any panels of a listed building consult your local conservation officer. Listed building consent will normally be necessary and you may be required to carry out recording of the existing panels before proceeding. Some buildings constructed before the 18th century were decorated with wall paintings to brighten the home. These important works of early art vary from simple patterns of repeated motifs to fine works of art and trompe lloeil architectural elements. Whenever considering the removal of a panel it is essential to be aware that original wall paintings or patterns could be hidden beneath the layers of limewash, plaster or panelling.

Before deciding upon a design for your new panels it is necessary to understand why the old ones have failed and to address these reasons. For example, there is clearly no point in replacing a panel damaged by a leaking gutter if the leak is still there. Wattle and daub is the natural choice for a replacement panel. The evidence of the previous panel will normally dictate the species and pattern of the wattles. Most properly constructed and maintained wattle and daub panels will out-live their builder.

Combining as it does our understanding of traditional performance and the needs of old buildings, wattle and daub has proved itself over time. Properly maintained, the infill panels not only keep the weather out but also create an environment where the structural timber frame is not at risk. Not only is wattle and daub the sound choice from a constructional viewpoint it is also the most environmentally friendly approach. The materials are renewable, from sustainable resources, and minimal energy is consumed in their production.



~~~
Recommended Reading

Kenneth Reid, Panel Infillings to Timber-framed Buildings, SPAB technical pamphlet No 11, SPAB
John Ashurst, Practical Building Conservation Volume 3: Mortars, Plasters and Renders, English Heritage, Gower Technical Press, Aldershot, 1988
Adela Wright, Craft Techniques for Traditional Buildings, Batsford, London, 1991
John McCann, 'Brick Nogging in the Fifteenth and Sixteenth Centuries, with examples drawn mainly from Essex', Transactions of the Ancient Monuments Society, Volume 31, 1987
It is likely that repairs to infill panels will take place alongside repairs to the structural timber frame, so see also: SPAB Technical Pamphlet No 12, The Repair of Timber Frames and Roofs by James Boutwood






This article is reproduced from The Building Conservation Directory, 2001
Author

IAN PRITCHETT is managing director of IJP Building Conservation, the company he founded in 1986. He lectures widely on building conservation issues including lime in particular, and is currently revising the SPAB's technical pamphlet No 11, Panel Infillings to Timber-framed Buildings. In addition to repairing all kinds of historic buildings, IJP supplies traditional and ecological building materials through a subsidiary company, Old House Store Ltd.
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I am afraid that if dazdel is a "cowboy " then this forum should be called The DIY Ranch, as I also have never used lime to the extent that you promote it.

Any trades man who advices to use inappropriate materials that seal a traditional wet build is a cowboy IMO

I have been plastering and rendering for over 30 years and can tell you now that most of my customers could never afford to go down the "Real way to plaster is with lime route", that you are promoting and obviously either doing or are very good at "googling".

You give them the option to choose do you?

Most of the people who are asking our advice are the men and woman on the street that want information about how to get the job done and I would think as most of the people want to do the work theirselves, then they may be on a budget.

People come here to get the right advice.



Plastering forums have been going for lots of years with good advice from the likes of all the guys that are on here and when some one comes along like yourself that dis-spells all the advice that we give then it is no wonder that we dont come on to be "belittled" by someone like yourself that trys to make us look like we dont know what we are talking about.

You can't dispel advice if it's the correct advice, if you can't back up your advice it's not worth a bean.

I do not belittle you, with your knowledge or lots of the other lads dont, but I think you should be on a "specialist" form that requires the skills that you profess to have, and let normal guys like ourselves get on and "Enjoy" giving people the benefit of the "skills" that have worked for us and the people we give them to ,for the years that we have been doing it..

I don't belittle you either and if my advice makes you feel that way then I suggest you need to look to yourself to rectify that.

Benefit of what skills? Giving out bad advice about sealing traditional wet builds..?

Let people who come here asking for advice make up their own minds what they do and don't want. All these badly do to posts makes you look bad, put up or shut up I say.
 
The promotion of modern gypsum-based plasters has led to the almost complete demise of lime plastering, and of many of the traditional skills associated with the craft. This has been exacerbated by the plastering trade being divided into flat and decorative work, with new 'fibrous plasterwork' being made in workshops. Many youngsters entering the trade are now just taught the basic skills to enable them to stick up plasterboard and skim plaster onto it. We are told that it is all down to 'supply and demand'; if this is the case, those of us involved in work on old buildings need to be more demanding.

There is a real need for skilled plasterers who can plaster with lime, and also turn their hands to repairing and reinstating dado and cornice mouldings in situ. The current training system works against anyone gaining this set of skills.

An article like this cannot resolve this skills shortage, nor attempt to even describe the range of skills that a traditional plasterer should have. There are, however, some general principles which anyone involved with lime plastering should be aware of. Sadly there are too many cases of lime plasters failing because the people who have specified the work or the people carrying out the work don't have adequate knowledge or experience.

http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/internallimeplast/internallimeplast.htm

:rolleyes:
 

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