plastic elbow/spigot fitting copper to copper pipe run

[needalittlehelp]

hello people, I am in need of some incisive thinking please. I had a new boiler fitted about 8 weeks ago (plumber is C & G & gasman is corgi). No problems until 3 days ago when a plastic elbow/spigot blasted off the hot water run from the boiler to the bathroom when my wife turned on (& off) a cold water tap (just after flushing the loo). HUge deluge of mains water blasting out between the bathroom floor & kitchen ceiling until I turned off the mains.
I have read up a little bit & chatted to some plumbers but am really at a loss to know where the problems lies. Is it faulty fitting, faulty joint, pressure surge, bad luck or bad karma.
Boiler is a new vaillant ecomax 835 combi.
any insight very welcome, In case it happens again!

 

[Softus]

More information needed please, as follows:

1. What make was the fitting?
2. Which fitting was it (e.g. elbow, coupling, tee, etc.)?
3. What size - 15mm or 22mm?
4. What type of pipe was on each side of the fitting?
5. Was it old or new pipe?
6. If plastic, what make of plastic pipe?
7. If plastic, what type of pipe insert was used, if any?
8. How close to the boiler was the fitting?

 

[needalittlehelp]

thanks ror reply;
fitting was either polypipe or hep2o (located at the horizontal to vertical H/W supply to the upstairs bathroom.(ie 90 deg angle). Fitted on old copper on the horizontal run (before the joint) and new copper on the vertical. The joint is about 2.5 m from the boiler.
a few more details in case it helps....
this hot water run is 15mm from the boiler (new copper) horizontally joins old 15 mm copper (polypipe) which is joined to 22mm for about 1m and down to 15mm again just before the joint (from the polypipe this run is all old piping and all soldered joints).
The C/W run is all old 22mm and both C & H/W reduce down to 15mm as they angle to run upstairs.
Trouble I have is that when the ceiling came down there was much rubble and crap from upstairs building work (still in situ) that was not cleared away properly by lazy people). An emergency plumber came in to cap the H/W run for me after the deluge happened & the original plumber came to clear away the mess - including the plastic angle. I am trying to get the angle back to send off to hep2o (or poly).
probably all very confusing when you cannot view the jigsaw.
Any thoughts plz

 

[Gasguru]

Hepworth have had problems with the green grab rings disintegrating with disasterous results, they have also had other problems with their pipe.

They probably won't like to admit this but on enquiries in the past they have supplied my customers with "free" reels of pipe as a goodwill gesture.

Personally I wouln'd touch the stuff - many of the problems are factory originated. "O" rings and the heating industry aren't a good combination

 

[needalittlehelp]

Thanks Gasguru.

I see you don't have much faith in hepworth, as I need to get my head clear on which way to go & need to get hot water back to the bathroom pretty soon, are you saying; its OK to keep the plastic push on connectors on the Cold copper pipes (so long as they are not hepworth) & have all the Hot copper pipe connectors redone the traditional way ?

If you (or anyone) has the time, I am happy for some lengthy advice on this, I need to be sure that the way I go will be as water tight as possible !

cheers

 

[bab]

I refuse to use pushfit on hot & cold water full stop. how many soldered or compresion fittings do u hear of blowing off . if possible i would replace all of them at the very least with compresion. I'll go with them on ufh manifolds cos u have to & stop ends that are fitted as temps during work in progress. I expect a different veiw from some installers but when ya busy i like to install a walk away with confidence.. Quality shouldn,t be compromised by cost .

 

[Softus]

Hepworth have had problems with the green grab rings disintegrating with disasterous results

Frankly I don't believe this. I've seen plenty of faulty grab rings, but these are easy to spot. Never had one fail after fitting though, nor even seen or heard of one. I'd like to see more facts about this "disintegration".

...they have also had other problems with their pipe.

What 'problems' would those be then?

They probably won't like to admit this but on enquiries in the past they have supplied my customers with "free" reels of pipe as a goodwill gesture.

All manufacturers give away stuff as compensation for faulty goods, and it's normal to have some faults, so why would Hepworth be any different?

Personally I wouln'd touch the stuff - many of the problems are factory originated.

Like plenty of other parts.

"O" rings and the heating industry aren't a good combination

I think the opposite is true, and so does every boiler manufacturer in the world.

 

[Gasguru]

The green grab ring plastic breaks down and disintegrates into small fragments. I have seen this at a customers house (the kitchen and hall flooded). The elbows had only been fitted for about a year (by another plumber). I have also read reports about this particular problem on other forums. There is clearly a manufacturing fault.

Regarding Hepworths PB pipe, there was a manufacturing fault in the extrusion process. It manifests itself when the pipe is bent (long before the minimum bend radius) - a white stress ring is formed around the circumference of the pipe and it then snaps in two. Hepworth were un-willing to explain this but instantly offered sufficient pipe to remove all the existing pipe and replace.

Another problem this manufacturer had was in the extrusion process with barrier pipe. The layers failed to bond together - from what Hepworth told me they managed to recover a significant proportion of the faulty pipe but there must be miles of it installed in customers homes.

Incidently from what I understand PB pipe is not used in the US due to the problems they had over there (effected by the water chlorination) and only PEX is now allowed. I suspect the public are now much wiser to the pitfalls over there.

Considering O rings were first introduced in the 30's and the vast knowledge available on their application and design many manufacturers involved in the heating industry fail utilise this information and their products often leak like sieves. eg Worcester CDi's, Puma thermister seals, Worcester iJunior PRV hose connections, Vokera Options/Compacts etc etc.

O rings are used by manufactures since they are a cheap seal, are ideally suitaed to low cost moulded parts, require little skill to assemble, and for the warranty period make part replacement easy. Long term reliability is of no consequence to most manufacturers.


As for the original posting if you are going to use pushfit out of all the systems I have encountered I would say the original Yorkshire Tectite fittings are amongst the most reliable. For a start they have a collar to centralise the pipe into the O ring.

 

[HarrogateGas]

Im with Softus, nothing wrong with correctly installed plastic pipeing.


It usually only gives problems when it is installed by people who dont know how to install it correctly.

 

[Softus]

The green grab ring plastic breaks down and disintegrates into small fragments. I have seen this at a customers house.

I've seen the same thing with a grab ring in my hands - I decided not to fit it.

I have also read reports about this particular problem on other forums.

Hearsay.

There is clearly a manufacturing fault.

There are manufacturing faults with all components, but I presume that you don't boycott all of them.

Regarding Hepworths PB pipe, there was a manufacturing fault in the extrusion process. It manifests itself when the pipe is bent (long before the minimum bend radius) - a white stress ring is formed around the circumference of the pipe and it then snaps in two.

Have you seen this happen?

Another problem this manufacturer had was in the extrusion process with barrier pipe. The layers failed to bond together - from what Hepworth told me they managed to recover a significant proportion of the faulty pipe but there must be miles of it installed in customers homes.

Why must there be? Did Hepworth tell you that?

Incidently from what I understand PB pipe is not used in the US due to the problems they had over there (effected by the water chlorination) and only PEX is now allowed. I suspect the public are now much wiser to the pitfalls over there.

You seem to jump from sketchy facts to conjecture and onto sweeping generalisation in the blink of an computer cursor.

O rings are used by manufactures since they are a cheap seal, are ideally suitaed to low cost moulded parts, require little skill to assemble, and for the warranty period make part replacement easy.

You make a good case for using them.

Long term reliability is of no consequence to most manufacturers.

And what about the ones to whom long term reliability does matter? They use O rings too.

As for the original posting if you are going to use pushfit out of all the systems I have encountered I would say the original Yorkshire Tectite fittings are amongst the most reliable. For a start they have a collar to centralise the pipe into the O ring.

Just like Hep2o then. But since you "don't touch the stuff", what basis do you have for believing that it's less reliable than Tectite fittings?

 

[Softus]

If you (or anyone) has the time, I am happy for some lengthy advice on this, I need to be sure that the way I go will be as water tight as possible !

If you're unskilled in either soldering or pushfit, then compression fittings would be the best for you. You can still use this with Hepworth pipe, but be sure to fit the inserts (aka support sleeves).

 

[needalittlehelp]

Thank you to all,

You will see from the 1st post (but maybe it was not made clear by me) that the connector that blasted off the copper HOT water pipe that feeds the upstairs bathroom was plastic.

The process of blasting off the plastic connector seemed to be initiated by turning on (& off) a COLD water tap in the bathroom.

This is confusing to me as I cannot understand why the process of operating a Cold water tap could blast off a HOT water pipe connector. Maybe a coincidence (or maybe my wife was mistaken & she did use the Hot tap that night).

Either way I guess that the plumber (not me by the way) who fitted the plastic connectors to the copper pipe (a mixture of poly pipe & hepworth) maybe fitted this one incorrectly (or we just had bad luck with a dodgy fitting).

The new pipes & connectors he fitted (in the bathroom) are plastic - not sure what brand - & so far have not been a problem.

From your helpful insight, I will now ask the plumber to re-do all the connectors on the copper pipework to either soldered or compression (or maybe tectite) rather than leave them in plastic (better belts & braces!).

If any one new or old has a brain wave (or experience of this problem), I will keep on checking this forum as I am enjoying the learning curve !
Thanks again

 

[Softus]

The process of blasting off the plastic connector seemed to be initiated by turning on (& off) a COLD water tap in the bathroom.

This is confusing to me as I cannot understand why the process of operating a Cold water tap could blast off a HOT water pipe connector. Maybe a coincidence (or maybe my wife was mistaken & she did use the Hot tap that night).

I can imagine a causes of that, but knowing which applies depends on the type of failure of the joint. For example, what condition was the grab ring in? How far onto the pipe were the grab ring marks? what diameter was the copper pipe? What condition was the surface?

BTW, I'm quite bemused that you keep using (as do others) the term "blast" when you refer to the connector coming off the pipe, as if to over-dramatise the failure.

The new pipes & connectors he fitted (in the bathroom) are plastic - not sure what brand - & so far have not been a problem.

There might be a latent fault.

From your helpful insight, I will now ask the plumber to re-do all the connectors on the copper pipework to either soldered or compression (or maybe tectite) rather than leave them in plastic (better belts & braces!).

Tectite uses the same principles as Hep2o for grabbing and sealing. A curious product preference for those people who dislike plastic pushfit.

If any one new or old has a brain wave (or experience of this problem), I will keep on checking this forum as I am enjoying the learning curve !

My brainwave is that you're being paranoid. I would determine the cause of the failure and deal with the risk that it presents. I would also consider claiming on the insurance of the installer of the fitting, if he had installed it wrongly.

 

[Gasguru]

For someone who installs sub-standard steam cubicles (probably illegally since they are unlikely to be approved by WRAS and CE marked) in customers houses I think much of Softus advice should be taken with a pinch of salt.

He likes to promote plastic pipework in order to justify his cheap and nasty installation practice. Remember plastic pipework was developed to satisfy the new build market - ie using cheap labour and de-skilling the plumbing process. Quality minded plumbers would always use copper despite the installation taking longer.

I have had numerous discussions with manufacturers of plastic pipework - both at trade only exhibitions and extensively with their technical departments. These conversations are always about problems my customers have seen - many of these problems are down to design and manufacturing faults. Ie correct installation does not ensure a fault free life. There are many manufacturing processes that can go wrong with push fit plumbing. However manufacturing copper pipework and fittings is a very simple manufacturing process by comparison.

I have also worked for a very large manufacturer invovled in the plumbing industry ( in fact they are now position one or two in their particular field) - their manufacturing process and business ethics were similar to their competitors - and quality control was a long way down the list.

It doesn't matter how many times Softus hears the truth about pushfit plumbing he continues to justify his own lazy plumbing techniques by slagging off any reasoned and justified comments on the subject.

 

[Softus]

For someone who installs sub-standard steam cubicles

One. One sub-standard cubicle.

...(probably illegally since they are unlikely to be approved by WRAS and CE marked) in customers houses I think much of Softus advice should be taken with a pinch of salt.

One. One customer's house. And this was another plumber's existing customer who decided to buy it without consulting me. And I posted the information on the forum to warn people away from this brand of pod.

He likes to promote plastic pipework in order to justify his cheap and nasty installation practice.

My installation practices are impeccable, and I don't promote plastic and/or pushfit more than any other product, I just criticise plumbers who are closed-minded and spout nonsense based on their own prejudices. I like soldering, partly because I'm exceptionally good at it, but I don't do it when it's not the best method to use.

Remember plastic pipework was developed to satisfy the new build market

There's always been a new build market, so WTF are you talking about?

In any case, whatever the reasons were for the first products on the market, which were inferior, they've come a long way since.

ie using cheap labour and de-skilling the plumbing process.

That's your opinion, but you don't know how much, or little, skill is needed to install it because you don't touch the stuff.

Quality minded plumbers would always use copper despite the installation taking longer.

This is untrue. Quality-minded installers use the best components for the circumstances, taking into account labour, cost of materials, longevity, reliability, future maintainability, and aesthetics.

I have had numerous discussions with manufacturers of plastic pipework - both at trade only exhibitions and extensively with their technical departments. These conversations are always about problems my customers have seen - many of these problems are down to design and manufacturing faults.

Yes. And there are design and manufacturing faults in all walks of life and all realms of plumbing.

correct installation does not ensure a fault free life.

True, but it goes a long way towards it with plastic and pushfit if you weed out any faulty fittings instead of fitting them, and if you know what you're doing instead of treating it like lego.

There are many manufacturing processes that can go wrong with push fit plumbing. However manufacturing copper pipework and fittings is a very simple manufacturing process by comparison.

And that's why sometimes it's best not to fit plastic, but to decide never to use it is immature and not in the best interests of the customer.

It doesn't matter how many times Softus hears the truth

You don't tell the truth about it - you don't use it and you don't know anything about it other than what other people tell you.

...reasoned and justified comments...

Pah!