Please help - Rebating with table saw

[ziggy1979]

Hi

I have a Ryobi table saw and was wanting to use it to rebate/groove some pieces in order to slot in a bottom for a couple of drawers i'm going to make.

To do this i have to remove the blade guard and the riving knife. I've heard of this stuff being done before but reading the Ryobi manual it says that this should not be done. Before i go ahead and do it anyway i was wondering whether any of you guys had done this before and whether provided i'm careful it shouldn't be too dangerous. OR whether you think i should definitely not do it.

Thanks a lot ... again!

 

[big-all]

official line

DO NOT DO IT as you must not use a saw without riving knife and gaurd in place

i would never do such a thing but if i did i would set the fence for the bottom of the groove set the saw blade for 6mm assuming the material was at least 12mm thick
i wouldnt move the fence 2 or three time to give a slot of 1/2mm bigger than the thickness of the board

and i certainly wouldnt stand to one side of the in case of the chance of kickback

 

[ziggy1979]

Thanks Big-All

So is your advice definitely don't do it? What can happen if you use a table saw without the riving knife and guard in place - other than passing a hand (or two through the blade)? DO you risk the blade flying out or something?

How dangerous is it to do what I asked? Do those guys who do do it use better table saws ... or does is not matter which saw you use as its the same "dangers" that are there?

Also, and more importantly, how do you recommend i do it? With a router? The problem here becomes clamping down 100mm x 250mm pieces and still having enough space for a guide rail and the router itself on the piece.

Perhaps I should point out that I will be using oak veneered mdf so the chances of kick-back because of a warped piece of wood or loose knot should be unlikely.

 

[big-all]

as a proffesional i would not advise the use of a table saw whithout the gaurds in place

on a scale of 1 to 10 of hidden dangers [the spinning blade being an obviouse danger ] i would rate your task as a 4 and if you use the push stick to push forward and your other hand to guide the wood against the fence from the opposite edge a 2 out of 10

if you have used you saw a fair bit and are used to the saw then your in a better position

the main danger is when you first hit the blade and when the blade appears out the back

if you are a diyer health and safety dosnt directly relate to you on this task so if your happy with your ability then its your choice

here is a picture of my flip saw in table mode with the gaurd and riving knife removed for"cleaning purposes"

 

[ziggy1979]

Big-All

Thanks again ... I take it on your 1-10 scal, 10 is the most dangerous and 1 the least?

I saw that the Health and Safety Executive say that a Shaw guard should be used when using a table saw to groove pieces. I can't find one to bu ybut I thought I could make something similar ...

1. I am grooving 18mm mdf so i thought i could get a largish piece of 18mm mdf and screw another square piece onto it. The top piece would overhang the lower piece and the wood i am grooving would pass through this space ... i guess if you llok at it from the front of the table saw it would look like a squashed "S".

2. I would then clamp this down to the saw, push the piece through the blade with the push stick and keepit against the rip fence.

Do you think this is crazy or should it work and make it safer?

Thanks mate ... yet again!!!

 

[big-all]

figure 7 is the ideal setup as it allows for the fact that components arn't always parrallel
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

if you do gaurd the work you need to either make shure its spring loaded or you can apply pressure in the right areas to keep it on the blade

if you are likley to trench groove or rebate with any regulaity then build a gaurd with sprung guids

if not when you next remove the gaurds for cleaning

 

[Jasonb]

Use a router table, its far safer especially with small pieces of wood. either a straight bit or a groover on an arbour will do. You will also get less tearout with a straight router bit than you will with a table saw.

Jason

 

[Thermo]

here is a picture of my flip saw in table mode with the gaurd and riving knife removed for"cleaning purposes"

Ooooh you little liar!

 

[big-all]

Ooooh you little liar!

wheres the out of tune whistling embarrassed smile

 

[greengrass]

Thanks Big-All

So is your advice definitely don't do it? What can happen if you use a table saw without the riving knife and guard in place - other than passing a hand (or two through the blade)? DO you risk the blade flying out or something?

How dangerous is it to do what I asked? Do those guys who do do it use better table saws ... or does is not matter which saw you use as its the same "dangers" that are there?

Also, and more importantly, how do you recommend i do it? With a router? The problem here becomes clamping down 100mm x 250mm pieces and still having enough space for a guide rail and the router itself on the piece.

Perhaps I should point out that I will be using oak veneered mdf so the chances of kick-back because of a warped piece of wood or loose knot should be unlikely.

I Have to put my all here. Don't even try cutting a groove with the blade low it can still be kicked back. Also the idea of the riven plate is to stop the cut closing on the blade which can also cause kick back or damage the saw by jamming. By all means don't take our advice and try it but be prepared for your voice to raise by a few ocataves when the timber hits you in the Nether regions. If it says in the user guide don't then they made it so they know what can happen. Plus it requires a special double blade for grooving purpose which won't fit either your or my Ryobi saw. I made my router table from www.absolutelyfreeplans.com

 

[gatesmr2]

Just a thought but is it just me

I have the ryobi table saw ( great saw for the price ) and asume they all come with this wonderful plastic push stick no matter what brand !!!!!

Now i don,t intend to find out but i use a nice soft wood push stick as if a nice brittle plastic push stick hits the blade surely by god it,s gonna spit plastic bits everywhere

Just a thought wondered if anyone had ever found out what happens

OHH and i,m with big all have to say my gaurd ect always seems to need to come off for cleaning ............. how the heck can you make a lap joint ect without a spot of cleaning

Marty

 

[Scrit]

Now I don't intend to find out but I use a nice soft wood push stick as if a nice brittle plastic push stick hits the blade surely by god it's gonna spit plastic bits everywhere

Just a thought wondered if anyone had ever found out what happens

The push stick is generally made from soft enough plastic that the saw just nifbbles it away like it was timber. I've had quite a few strikes this way with both plastic and wood and rarely does anything come your way, especially if you've got the crown guard in place - another good reason to use the crown guard. Just occasionally, though, it will grab the push stick. Still, better a push stick than my fingers

Scrit

 

[Symptoms]

Sorry all ... I am aware that this tread is oldish but I think that table saws can be quite versatile bits of kit.

Before that days of the H&S Industry table saws were used for a huge variety of cutting tasks, including: grooving, rebating, tenoning, & cutting other joints as well as ripping & cross-cutting. The reason for this was that often this was the only bit of powered machinery in the workshop. It was accepted practice that guards could be removed, even the training institutions taught the practice. Of course even then the emphasis was on effectively supporting the workpiece and keeping the operator safe - this can be done without guards. Sure, the equipment manufacturers say don't take the guards off, and in these litigatious times who can blame them. H&S rules, quite properly, in the workplace but can in my opinion go a little too far when restricting the design use of a piece of equipment.

It was commom practice to have a selection of 'push blocks' for use on the table saw when grooving or rebating. These were wooden blocks with one or two handles on the top, a flat base with stop blocks (looked like a giant plane but made of wood). You plonked this over the workpiece and introduced it to the saw; the push block allowed the operator to deliver support in the 3 needed directions, down, against the fence and push. There was never a danger of kick-back 'cos of the stop blocks.

The current, ready availability of wobble blades, Dado Sets, etc. means that we can use our table saws for a wide variety of uses. There are issues when using table saws with 'electric brakes'.

When grooving or rebating a veneered board it is a good idea to make-up a wooden 'false table' which has a narrow blade mouth so as to lend support to the veneer on the workpiece (prevents break-out); most table saws have a wide mouth.

Legal stuff - I am not advocating any of the above practice for others.

 

[Norcon]

Mafell now make a hand held circular saw (NFU 32) with a 30mm arbour similar to spindle moulders.

The cutter head it accepts is 125mm in diameter and can groove 15.4 -26.5 widths.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Sorry all ... I am aware that this tread is oldish but I think that table saws can be quite versatile bits of kit.

Before that days of the H&S Industry table saws were used for a huge variety of cutting tasks, including: grooving, rebating, tenoning, & cutting other joints as well as ripping & cross-cutting. The reason for this was that often this was the only bit of powered machinery in the workshop.

I don't know where you served your time or where you went to college (I suspect you've done neither), but 40-odd years back I worked in a relatively small business where we had a spindle moulder and a crosscut saw - the spindle handled moulding, edge grooving, etc whilst the crosscut saw did trenching/housing (what the great unwashed incorrectly refer to as "dados" these days) as well as cross graining moulds (such a shaped horns for sashes). I for one don't recall any of the shops I visited in that time having only one saw for everything

It was accepted practice that guards could be removed, even the training institutions taught the practice.

Really? Which year was that, then? You are obviously somewhat older than I. The "H&S Culture" you seem so dismissive of goes back a long way, well before WWI, and the reasons training and guards became so important was because there were so many injuries caused by accidents on unguarded cutters.

Legal stuff - I am not advocating any of the above practice for others.

No, of course you aren't...........