Plug In Solar consultation now open

[Old Salt]

The cat is out of the bag, you aint gonna stop non installed solar generation. They cant stop people by passing meters so they stand no chance with solar.

 

[ericmark]

I have to agree, on another forum seen the take-up on plug and play, if one already has a G99 submitted then no need to wait.

If not, then waiting may mean payment for export. As far as I am concerned, if they are permitted, one on the wall facing morning winter sun may help, but not until September so I can wait.

I do see @JohnW2 point, we know how much can be saved by only heating rooms as and when required, and it would seem simple common sense to fit programmable TRV heads, specially now the price has dropped, for non-linked types around £15 to £20 each, linked are more expensive, but when I talk about electronic TRV heads people look at me as if I am on another planet. There is no way I could heat every room in this house 24/7, yet people still do, and even buy new systems which will not run efficiently when only heating two rooms.

 

[JohnW2]

The cat is out of the bag, you aint gonna stop non installed solar generation. They cant stop people by passing meters so they stand no chance with solar.

I don't think it's quite as bad as you suggest - the vast majority of the population obey rules/laws and don't "bypass meters", so the same might apply to other 'banned' things.

However, as you imply, this business has probably gone far too far for it to be reasonably stoppable, so I think I have to leave it to those who have created the mess to find some way of improving things a bt!

 

[JohnW2]

I do see @JohnW2 point, we know how much can be saved by only heating rooms as and when required ...

Quite so.

, and it would seem simple common sense to fit programmable TRV heads, specially now the price has dropped, for non-linked types around £15 to £20 each, linked are more expensive, but when I talk about electronic TRV heads people look at me as if I am on another planet.

Those with at least one usable hand can adjust non-programmable TRVs, stats and switches without the need for any capital outlay on new-fangled technology. They can also take shorter showers and may less 'unnecessary' use of cars etc., too !

There is no way I could heat every room in this house 24/7, yet people still do, and even buy new systems which will not run efficiently when only heating two rooms.

As you know, I have a very large house, and (other than, perhaps, at Christmas!!) I have never attempted (could never have afforded to attempt!) to heat more than about 20-25% of the rooms at any one time, and virtually never anything heated for 24/7. That's all achieved by (mainly 40-year old) stats, motorised valves, switches and time switches - most of which have not been replaced in that 40 years!

Expectations have changed dramatically. You and I are of similar vintages, so it won't surprise you to hear that I spent mot of the first couple of decades of my life in a house which had one coal fire (later gas) on the ground floor, no heating at all 'upstairs' other than a very small paraffin heater (used only very occasionally) in the bathroom plus one or two 'portable' electric('bar') and/or paraffin heaters. We survived!

 

[Murdochcat]

Bottom line is that IF these solutions are sold in the UK, then there is nothing to stop Joe Public BUYING them and PLUGGING them into any circuit with a 13A socket

 

[ericmark]

Those with at least one usable hand can adjust non-programmable TRVs, stats and switches without the need for any capital outlay on new-fangled technology.

Yes, just because half of mine work without using a hand, using voice control, does not mean I think that's what everyone should do.

I had problems with central heating when I moved in, and I was annoyed that I could not buy a TRV base for less than a TRV base and head, so the heads just went into a draw, should have binned them, but they were new. At £15 each I got 5 bluetooth heads, hardly any more expensive to mechanical heads, bluetooth allows them to be paired when two in same room, but not needed all setting can be done manually, today WiFi types at nearly same price, so at £60 for a TRV head which can tell boiler when to fire up, yes an expensive luxury not required for most rooms, but at £15 daft not to have a programmable TRV head.

As to wall thermostat, not sure really required, I do have three, one is for flat so hardly ever used, the other two programmable the only reason for the Nest is emergency use to heat hot water, or when the Wiser one batteries become discharged, Nest is connected but hardly ever used. I don't like relying on batteries.

The living room Wiser thermostat, hindsight, could have moved the TRV heads around instead, there is no real need for a wall thermostat when the TRV heads are linked.

So yes, "hey google set living room to 22 degrees C" will set the two TRV heads and the wall thermostat, but in real terms the two TRV heads are not required to heat the room, they are however required to stop the room heating, so at night I can just heat the bedrooms, to be frank rare the linked TRV ever turns on the central heating.

But as to how much energy the router, Nest Mini speakers, TV on standby, etc uses, I don't really know. I am using 1145 watts at the moment, and 751 watts is going to the AC and 30 watt to pedestal fan. So around 350 watts don't know where it is going, immersion heater, fridge, freezers, or standby use. Exported 18.7 kWh today so not really worried about 350 watts.

 

[JohnW2]

Bottom line is that IF these solutions are sold in the UK, then there is nothing to stop Joe Public BUYING them and PLUGGING them into any circuit with a 13A socket

Yes, I think that many of us have said that many times. However, in terms of your IF, it means that those who decide (if they do) to allow them to be sold in the UK, they really need to be pretty confident that they are not going to end up on the wrong side of lawsuits, Coroner's Courts and the Sunday Papers etc. (not to mention polling booths!) if it transpires that the potential problems have not been adequately thought through!

 

[flameport]

I remain very unclear/confused. I'm not even convinced that 'unilateral' devices exist, or ever have existed.

Here is some more confusion:

from here: https://www.voltimum.co.uk/news/doe... should still trip to the relevant parameters.

 

[Murdochcat]

Yes, I think that many of us have said that many times. However, in terms of your IF, it means that those who decide (if they do) to allow them to be sold in the UK, they really need to be pretty confident that they are not going to end up on the wrong side of lawsuits, Coroner's Courts and the Sunday Papers etc. (not to mention polling booths!) if it transpires that the potential problems have not been adequately thought through!

People sourcing through the Internet don’t care about that stuff, nor do the vendors who are over seas

There is so much copied kit flooding into the UK now - the genie is well and truly out of the bottle

 

[JohnW2]

People sourcing through the Internet don’t care about that stuff, nor do the vendors who are over seas

I never suggested that they did care. Indeed , I haven't been talking about those people at all- we are agreed that if sale in UK becomes legal (and, to some extent, even if it doesn't), people will buy and use these things in the UK.

The people I was talking about are those who may (and probably will) (but maybe ultimately won't!) make the sale of the things legal in the UK - and I was suggesting that they should probably be thinking very carefully about the protection of their own backsides (and jobs, careers, and maybe even liberty) before deciding to become the people "who made the sale of these things legal".

 

[JohnW2]

Here is some more confusion:

Hmmmmm !

Almost everything I've previously thought and written about this 'directionality' issue has been in the context of an AC residual current and, as I've said, I really can't see, in that context, how on earth the direction of flow of AC residual current (sensed by two conductors passing though a sensing coil) can possibly have any effect on the residual current sensing or RCD functionality (whether the device is called 'unidirectional' or 'bidirectional'!).

However, what you have just posted moves that goalpost by saying ....

If we're now talking about a DC residual current then, since I don't really know how a Type B device detects that (I guess probably with the use of Hall-effect devices), there's not a lot I can say with any certainty - although I would again strongly suspect that any Type B device (whether called 'unidirectional' or 'bidirectional'!) would have to able to detect a residual DC current equally with either direction of current flow - not the least because unless/until it arises the device can't possibly know anything about the polarity of a DC residual current that may subsequently arise!!

So, yes, I for one am certainly still very confused!

 

[ericmark]

I must be missing something. So the supply comes from either DNO or the inverter, and the cable to be connecting them both together has a RCD placed at the DNO end, as once the device opens, the inverter will auto shut down.

So DNO to inverter flow direction easy, turn off DC isolator, and it can only go DNO to inverter, but to ensure current goes from inverter to DNO the panels need to be generating, and we need a method to measure the RCD time delay independent to the anti-island time delay, how?

 

[JohnW2]

I must be missing something.

I think the only thing you're probably missing is that, as flameport implied, most things written about this business seem to be confused/confusing!

So the supply comes from either DNO or the inverter, and the cable to be connecting them both together has a RCD placed at the DNO end, as once the device opens, the inverter will auto shut down. .... So DNO to inverter flow direction easy, turn off DC isolator, and it can only go DNO to inverter, but to ensure current goes from inverter to DNO the panels need to be generating....

Who knows? It could mean at least some if that, but what flameport posted didn't 'actually say' much of it! It doesn't say that it's anything specifically to do with PV or inverters but, rather, says that it is describing how to use a Fluke 1654B to test "any Type B RCD".

It might be talking of something akin to 'bench testing', with the "...repeat the test on the opposite side", meaning that the DNO should be moved to 'the other side' of the device, and with "...outgoing circuit should be disconnected" meaning that no inverter (or anything else) should be connected to the 'other side' of the RCD in either case - if it's intended as just a test of an RCD that could make sense, since connection of an inverter (or anything else) could confuse measurement of the performance of an RCD. For example, as you go on to say ....

.... we need a method to measure the RCD time delay independent to the anti-island time delay, how?

Indeed- and, for what it's worth, my personal opinion is that it's any such "anti-island time delay" would be one of the most iffy things about all this - since it's another way of describing a deliberate extension of the period of time during which there could/would be a 'widow maker' available to be touched!

As, I've said, I don't think that we (at least, I) know/understand enough to be able to comment particularly intelligently or usefully about any of this!