Potterton Suprima tripping

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Sorry to hear of so many others with the same problem.

My Potterton Suprima has been tripping several times a day for almost a year until I finally had the PCB replaced this month. It cost a small fortune and I am very annoyed to find the problem to be so common. The plumber who fitted it said that Potterton have been trying to fix the problem for some time and the current PCB is about the 8th or 9th release (?I think, can't recall the exact number for sure) and should have fixed the problem.

My question is: has anyone claimed for replacement from Potterton?

Because if they are aware of it (clearly they are) then they are liable. QED.
 
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Have no idea

bet it has been tried I think the OFT are looking into potterton

as for the 8th or 9th attempt at the PCB potty's are bad but not that bad

think they are only on the third or fourth generation AGILE would know better
 
In theory you are right, unfortunately in this country we don't normally enforce much of our legislation and the plumbing and heating industry ignore it. :cry:

Although I did manage to claim a new cylinder and a days labour for a customer after the initial cylinder leaked. Took nearly a year though. :D



Subject: Sale of Goods Act, Faulty Goods.

Relevant or Related Legislation: Sale of Goods Act 1979. Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982. Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994. The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002.

Key Facts:

• Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale).

• Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the price and any description.

• Aspects of quality include fitness for purpose, freedom from minor defects, appearance and finish, durability and safety.

• It is the seller, not the manufacturer, who is responsible if goods do not conform to contract.

• If goods do not conform to contract at the time of sale, purchasers can request their money back "within a reasonable time". (This is not defined and will depend on circumstances)

• For up to six years after purchase (five years from discovery in Scotland) purchasers can demand damages (which a court would equate to the cost of a repair or replacement).

• A purchaser who is a consumer, i.e. is not buying in the course of a business, can alternatively request a repair or replacement.

• If repair and replacement are not possible or too costly, then the consumer can seek a partial refund, if they have had some benefit from the good, or a full refund if the fault/s have meant they have enjoyed no benefit

• In general, the onus is on all purchasers to prove the goods did not conform to contract (e.g. was inherently faulty) and should have reasonably lasted until this point in time (i.e. perishable goods do not last for six years).

• If a consumer chooses to request a repair or replacement, then for the first six months after purchase it will be for the retailer to prove the goods did conform to contract (e.g. were not inherently faulty)

• After six months and until the end of the six years, it is for the consumer to prove the lack of conformity.

Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)

Q1. What is an inherent fault?
Q2. Do I only have rights for 30 [or some other number] days after purchase?
Q3. Do all goods have to last six (or five) years?
Q4. I know I can demand my money back within a "reasonable time" but how long is that?
Q5. After the "reasonable time has passed", what can I do?
Q6. Is it true that I have to complain to the manufacturer?
Q7. Do I have to produce a receipt?
Q8. Can I claim a refund on sale items?
Q9. Must I accept a credit note instead of a refund?
Q10. What can I do to claim damages or if the retailer will not honour my rights?
Q11. The retailer has claimed that a repair is "disproportionately costly" and insists I accept a replacement as an alternative. Must I accept this?
Q12. Neither repair nor replacement are possible. What can I do?
Q13. What will the "reversed burden of proof" mean for the consumer


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q1. What is an inherent fault?

A fault present at the time of purchase. Examples are:
• an error in design so that a product is manufactured incorrectly
• an error in manufacturing where a faulty component was inserted.
The "fault" may not become apparent immediately but it was there at the time of sale and so the product was not of satisfactory standard.

Q2. Do I only have rights for 30 (or some other figure) days after purchase?

No. Depending on circumstances, you might be too late to have all your money back after this time, but the trader will still be liable for any breaches of contract, such as the goods being faulty. In fact, the trader could be liable to compensate you for up to six years.

Q3. Are all goods supposed to last six (or five) years?

No, that is the limit for bringing a court case in England and Wales (five years from the time of discovery in Scotland's case). An item only needs to last as long as it is reasonable to expect it to, taking into account all the factors. An oil filter would usually not last longer than a year but that would not mean it was unsatisfactory.

Q4. I know I can demand my money back within a "reasonable time" but how long is that?

The law does not specify a precise time as it will vary for most sales contracts as all the factors need to be taken into account to be fair to all sides. The pair of everyday shoes may only have a few days before the period expires but a pair of skis, purchased in a Summer Sale, may be allowed a longer period by a court.

Q5. After the "reasonable time" has passed, what can I do?

You may seek damages, which would be the amount of money necessary to have the goods repaired or replaced. Frequently retailers will themselves offer repair or replacement. But, if you are a consumer (not making the purchase in the course of a business) you have the statutory right to seek a repair or replacement as an alternative to seeking damages.

Q6. Is it true that I have to complain to the manufacturer?

No. You bought the goods from the trader, not the manufacturer, and the trader is liable for any breaches of contract (unless he was acting as the manufacturer's agent).

Q7. Do I have to produce a receipt to claim my rights?

No. In fact the trader doesn't have to give you a receipt in the first place so it would be unfair to say that you had to produce one. However, it might not be unreasonable for the shop to want some proof of purchase, so look to see if you have a cheque stub, bank statement, credit card slip etc., and this should be sufficient.

Q8. Can I claim a refund on sale items?

It depends on why you want to return them. The Sale of Goods Act still applies, but you are not entitled to a refund if you were told of the faults before purchase, or if the fault should have been obvious to you. Also, you are not entitled to a refund if you simply change your mind about liking the goods.

Q9. Must I accept a credit note instead of a refund?

It depends on why you want to return the goods.

• If you have changed your mind, then the shop doesn't have to do anything.

• But if the goods are faulty, incorrectly described or not fit for purpose, then you are entitled to your money back (provided you act quickly), and you certainly don't have to take a credit note

• If you do accept a credit note in these circumstances, watch out, as there may be restrictions on their use.

• If the shop displays a sign stating they only give credit notes instead of refunds, they might be breaking the law and you could report them to your local Trading Standards Department.

Q10. What can I do to claim damages or if the retailer will not honour my rights?

The Small Claims Court procedure provides the means to bring a claim, for up to £5000 (in England and Wales), at modest cost and without the need for a solicitor. Your local Citizens Advice Bureau can advise on how to make a claim.

Q11. The retailer has said that a repair is "disproportionately costly" and insists I accept a replacement as an alternative. Must I accept this?

Yes, and vice versa if you request a replacement and this is "disproportionately costly". However, remember any remedy has to be carried out "without significant inconvenience" and within a "reasonable time" for the consumer. Remember that you could also seek damages instead.

Q12. Neither repair nor replacement of the goods are possible. What can I do?

You may either pursue the old route of damages or a partial or full refund. Probably either would give you exactly the same amount of money. You would seek a full refund in scenarios such as those where you had enjoyed absolutely no benefit from the goods. If you had benefited from them then you would seek a partial refund as a fair remedy. This is exactly the reasoning that would be employed if you sought damages.

Q13. What does the "reversed burden of proof" mean for the consumer?

It means that for the first six months the consumer need not produce any evidence that a product was inherently faulty at the time of sale. If a consumer is seeking any other remedy the burden of proof remains with him/her.


In such a case, the retailer will either accept there was an inherent fault, and will offer a remedy, or he will dispute that it was inherently flawed. If the latter, when he inspects the product to analyse the cause, he may, for example, point out impact damage or stains that would be consistent with it having been mistreated in such a way as to bring about the fault.


This reversal of the usual burden of proof only applies when the consumer is seeking a repair or replacement. After the first six months the onus of proof is again on the consumer.
 
3rd generation

1 - 407750
2 - 5102160
3 - ... err the new one

And the number of people who have a friend who is a lawyer, are going to write to watchdog etc haven't got very far
 
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Dear Bishop,

I think that I must say to you "Forgive them for they know not what they do".

I do hope that they fitted the new redesigned PCB housed inside a plastic case. Thats a very expensive new part but is thought to be likely to be more reliable than the earlier design which in many cases had an average life of only 1-2 years.

As the manufacturer made a lot of money from selling replacement PCBs its easy to see that they had no incentive to improve the original part.

I have never heard of anyone who managed to even get a free replacement when the original had failed within 12 months. Not even Softus, Bishop!

Of course if you have those supernatural powers to invoke Higher Authority then perhaps you will succeed where us mere mortals fail.

Tony

PS I do hope that you were able to watch the BBC's Manchester Passion on Good Friday. I watched it twice, first live then the following recorded transmission.
 
Agile said:
I have never heard of anyone who managed to even get a free replacement when the original had failed within 12 months. Not even Softus, Bishop!
True, but I haven't attempted to yet :evil:
 
I think the US adopts a very different attitude to poor quality goods.

Although we see the downside of their litigious society with the endless no win/no fee adverts it has meant that unscrupulous manufacturers can't always get away with it.

There have been several class actions against plumbing and heating companies.

Some that come to mind are the early polybutylene push fit pipework systems -miles of it had to be ripped out. An electric underfloor heating manufacturer had a design fault with large areas of the floor failing. Home owners claimed complete renewal including tiling etc.

A couple of years ago I had a customer with a CB24. First PCB failed at 13 months (just out of warranty), at 18 months DHW flow switch failed, 14 months later another PCB. Despite endless correspondence with alpha technical I got nowhere. There answer - "Its the customers fault, they should have got a warranty".

A worcester tech told me a few years ago - "everyone knows its designed for a 5 year life" when I was after advice on a difficult lockout problem.
 
Ignoring the Bishop for just a moment, the plain legal matter is that its the poor gas installer who legally has the problem.

He has supplied and been paid for the CB24 or whatever. Its the installer the customer can chase for unreliable goods supplied.

Of course the UK manufacturer has accepted the responsibility for providing the warranty, but thats only 12 monthe or so. After that the customer can chase the installer.

In reality its not the installer's fault. He provided the CB24 or whatever in good faith and usually the manufacturer will "allow" himself to be sued for supplying the unservicable appliance. Strictly in law though its the installer who is liable.

I have heard of a case when Potty engineers were unable to get their Envoy to work for more than a few days at a time and they paid for it to be replaced with another manufacturer's boiler!

Tony
 
Agile said:
Ignoring the Bishop for just a moment, the plain legal matter is that its the poor gas installer who legally has the problem.

He has supplied and been paid for the CB24 or whatever. Its the installer the customer can chase for unreliable goods supplied.

Of course the UK manufacturer has accepted the responsibility for providing the warranty, but thats only 12 monthe or so. After that the customer can chase the installer.

In reality its not the installer's fault. He provided the CB24 or whatever in good faith and usually the manufacturer will "allow" himself to be sued for supplying the unservicable appliance. Strictly in law though its the installer who is liable.



I have heard of a case when Potty engineers were unable to get their Envoy to work for more than a few days at a time and they paid for it to be replaced with another manufacturer's boiler!

Tony

not heard of any envoys a few suprima 120's maybe :D
 
Had a 120 which went belly up after 2 days. PCB failed couldn't get a replacement off the shelf, boiler was just out and it took a week for the Potty engineer to come and fix it. Left the old customer with out heat when the weather was pretty cold. Never fitted another suprima since and won't recommend them. As for the Envoy fitted 2 and failure after failure, glowplugs, burners, stats. Been changed to Baxi 100he's thats before I new about the probs with the fore runner (Barcelona) I wonder what boiler I'll use now????????
 
raden said:
3rd generation

1 - 407750
2 - 5102160
3 - ... err the new one

And the number of people who have a friend who is a lawyer, are going to write to watchdog etc haven't got very far

this is spot on but Im pretty sure each board had a different rev-level..

I may be wrong but was also told there has been around 8/9 changes to the board from first manufacture
 
I think you are wrong there have not been 8 or 9 changes only four as raden says
 
corgiman said:
I think you are wrong there have not been 8 or 9 changes only four as raden says

you may be right mate, but was previously told this, I suppose the part numbers back it up but an ex council worker who fitted mountains of these told me about the board revisions happening...

I also used to work for sun microsystems before returning to the gas industry and board revisions changed very frequently for pcb's. part numbers never changed but revision levels in the stockroom did....(ie -1 to -7 etc)

as I said only going on what I was informed and not 100% but givin the problems over a few years it wouldnt have surprisd me as it only takes the change of a small resistor in a board to change the rev level...

either way its safe to say the boards have been so so poor up until these new ones and rarely been back to a suprima since changing them !
 

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