Pub converted to flats - gas/water for neighbours run through mine!

[skyblues]

Hi. New member here. I bought a flat last year, in a converted pub on a very long lease. The developer went bust and the conversion was finished by contractors working for the new freeholders - a firm of solicitors. The development began in 2015.

The main pub building has been split into three flats - two on the ground floor and one on the first/second floor. I have the ground floor flat which was the main bar area of the pub - this area is now my living room/kitchen. My two bedrooms and bathroom are in converted annexes. The main building is around 200 years old and the annexes are a bit newer. There are two further "flats" which are in fact further annexes/outbuildings, all joined together and now cobbled into two deep, narrow single-storey dwellings with very narrow frontages. Underneath my flat is the cellar.

Last week a water pipe burst in the tiny roof space above my single-storey bedroom. It turns out that this pipe was feeding water to the single storey flat further down the street. Rather than having a feed from the footway the water for that flat is piped from the cellar, up into my boiler cupboard, into the roof space of my flat, into the roof space of the neighbouring flat and finally down into the flat in question.

My flat was uninhabitable for a week.

Upon closer inspection it seems that the gas for the neighbouring flat comes up from the cellar, into my boiler cupboard, into my roof space and away to that flat. It is just bare 22mm copper pipe.

I'm sure this isn't legal.

Does anyone have a view on this?

 

[Stadan20]

Depends if there is a seperate meter and aecv for that property

 

[endecotp]

It's common for pipes etc. to pass through one flat to reach others. Often this is through some sort of service void extending the height of the building, though conversions will tend to be more ad-hoc. In your case the layout is more horizontal and it sounds like there could have been alternative routes for these pipes; I don't know what rules if any require that the "best" routes must be used. Why are you sure it's illegal?

 

[skyblues]

There's a separate meter but it's in the cellar - which the flat in question has no access to. According to these regulations: British Standard (BS) 6891(1), IGEM/UP/7 Edition 2(2) any pipes passing through my property must be steel, must be installed in a gas/air tight fire proof continuous duct, and in addition, a protected area conveying piped flammable gas is required to be adequately ventilated directly to the outside air by ventilation louvre - the duct must be ventilated to atmosphere. None of these stipulations have been complied with.
Additionally, I believe that such pipes must be a certain distance from electrical wires and sockets which they are not.
Given that the water pipe burst and flooded my flat I am a bit nervous about the gas pipe springing a leak and blowing me to kingdom come.
I don't understand why the gas and water weren't just fed to the two adjacent flats from the street as both have gas/water mains running past their front doors.

 

[Mottie]

I'd imagine it's probably because it would have cost the developer money to have seperate supplies installed to each property. I wouldn't know about the legalities of that though. If you are sure of your facts and they are copper and they went through my property, I'd give the leaseholder notice that they had to be done properly. If they didn't, I'd crush them and refuse access to repair them. They'd have to put new supplies in then via a different route!

 

[skyblues]

I'd imagine it's probably because it would have cost the developer money to have seperate supplies installed to each property. I wouldn't know about the legalities of that though. If they are copper and they went through my property, I'd crush them and refuse access to repair them. They'd have to put new supplies in then!

Thanks. We are having a gas safe engineer out tomorrow to have a look. I want to cap the water pipe and the gas pipe too if possible. The fact that the water pipe failed after less than a year doesn't fill me with confidence regarding the gas supply. I think that the place is a death trap. I will report back on what the gas safe guy says.

 

[Nige F]

The new freeholders - a firm of solicitors.



Does anyone have a view on this?

Good luck with that.

 

[skyblues]

Good luck with that.

Yes it is challenging to say the least

 

[Agile]

Firstly, water pipes don't just "burst" at least not unless the weather was freezing, you don't say where you are. More likely a badly made joint came apart. That is very common with push fit plastic pipework.

Secondly, you did not say who repaired and paid for the damage.

Your lease should have a clause to cover those pipes passing through your demise.

It is most unlikely that you have any right to block them off.

The consumer should have 24/7 access to the meters and particularly to the emergency turn off valve at the meter. In addition they should also have an emergency control where the gas enters their flat.

You don't seem to have a very ideal arrangement but your protection should have been from a survey before you decided to buy the flat.

But dodgy supplies in converted flats are very common.

Someone I know has a clause in their leases whereby the flat owner is responsible for maintenance and repairs on all the pipes in their flat and including pipes serving the other flats!

Tony

 

[skyblues]

Firstly, water pipes don't just "burst" at least not unless the weather was freezing, you don't say where you are. More likely a badly made joint came apart. That is very common with push fit plastic pipework.

Secondly, you did not say who repaired and paid for the damage.

Your lease should have a clause to cover those pipes passing through your demise.

It is most unlikely that you have any right to block them off.

The consumer should have 24/7 access to the meters and particularly to the emergency turn off valve at the meter. In addition they should also have an emergency control where the gas enters their flat.

You don't seem to have a very ideal arrangement but your protection should have been from a survey before you decided to buy the flat.

But dodgy supplies in converted flats are very common.

Someone I know has a clause in their leases whereby the flat owner is responsible for maintenance and repairs on all the pipes in their flat and including pipes serving the other flats!

Tony

Yes you are correct. A seal in a joint popped with two loud bangs. I'm in Wales, by the way.

No one has repaired the damage. The water was turned off at the footway stopcock. The flat that the pipe was feeding was unsold at the time (10 days ago). It has now sold but has no water supply. The contractor who came and identified the problem was the guy who has overseen the whole conversion project. According to the freeholder's secretary he has now disappeared without a trace. He's Polish, I believe. When he came round a few hours into the flood he looked terrified.

The lease appears to give the freeholder the right to run services for other flats through my flat. However it states that the freeholder is responsible for repairs and for any damage caused by leaks.

Tony, am I correct in thinking that gas supply to other flats which run through mine need to comply with British Standard (BS) 6891(1), IGEM/UP/7 Edition 2(2)?

 

[Agile]

So are the Freeholders going to pay for water damage and any alternative accommodation for you?

What you have quoted is the British Standard for gas pipework. It would be followed by gas transporters before the meter. But in your case it is after the meter.

But British Standards are not in themselves the law! They are good practice though. But internal gas pipework after the meter is usually done in copper!

Some others on this forum might know if there is any requirement to follow that pipework standard in your case.

Please also note what I said about access to meters and emergency controls!

Tony

 

[motorbiking]

you need to read your lease carefully- it may not be passing through your property but the communal area owned probably by the freeholders.

take care carrying out work that may give others the ability to claim damages from you.

if the pipes aren't in your property then lobby the landlord to bring them up to standard. you might be liable for the cost

 

[skyblues]

I found this info at this link https://www.culkinplumbingandheating.co.uk/copy-of-vaillant-boiler-spesificati

"If a gas pipe were to pass through another flat or property, a communal area or any area classified as a "Protected Area" is must be installed in a gas/air tight fire proof continuous duct.
In addition, a protected area conveying piped flammable gas is required to be adequately ventilated directly to the outside air by ventilation louvre The duct must be ventilated to atmosphere.
Fire collars would need to be fitted between properties.
In accordance with ADB(4), a pipe carrying flammable gas through a protected area (e.g. a dwelling) must be of screwed steel or of all welded steel construction.
However, a gas pipe is not considered to be within that protected area if that pipe is completely separated from the protected area by fire-resisting construction, such as a ventilated duct.
The fire-resisting properties of that construction need to be as recommended by the relevant guidance document.
Copper pipe with soldered joints may be routed through or in that protected area,provided that it is encased within its own duct/shaft of a similar fire rating for the protected area.
Local Building Control authority will need to be contacted to confirm whether the status of a corridor or space being communicated with is classified as a fire-protected."

The gas and water pipes come up from the cellar, pass vertically through a cupboard in my kitchen, where my boiler is housed. They come then make a 90 degree turn into and pass into the roofspace above my bedroom. They then pass into the roofspace of the adjacent flat.

It seems from this that although the pipework is "after the meter" it still satisfies none of the criteria for the above safety standards. Maybe that is why the meters are all in the cellar rather than in the individual flats - to avoid the contractors having to install expensive ducting, fireproofing and ventilation.

The gas safe man is coming round at 4:30 now as he couldn't make it this morning. Thanks for all of your advice, it is much appreciated.

 

[Agile]

In most situations there are regulations relating to gas pipes within a property and ducting. They can be a little complex.

But if not compliant would often be classed as Not to Current Standards rather than At Risk which requires immediate attention.

You may eventually need to call out Building Control and their Notices do require action. Slight danger there is to get them to serve the Notice on the Freeholder rather than you! If they served the Notice on you as beneficial occupier then you might regret it.

Even if you thought you had a good case then taking legal action against solicitors can be very risky as well as expensive. It is almost impossible to engage a solicitor to take action against another solicitor!

Lets see what your RGI has to say. I hope he is very conversant with regulations. We are tested on them but usually need to look them up after the assessment.

Tony

 

[skyblues]

Thanks Agile/Tony. I think that the freeholders are wide boys as well as solicitors. I've looked again in the roofspace above my bedrooms and bathroom. A mess of pipes for water, gas and the sprinklers. Also there is some exposed wiring in the attic for a light fitting in the small hallway linking the bedrooms. There is a lot of rubble in there too. I will let you know what the RGI says. He did say on the phone that he'd have to swot up on the latest codes.

I don't have much hope to be honest.