Pump position, is this mad?

[Justin Passing]

I looked up some numbers - if you had an actual stop cock (not GV) on the cistern outlet then you could drop about a metre of pressure at somewhere 20-30l/min. Probably not critical, but it would add up.

Iirc my folks' place does have stopcocks, but as it happens there are no low pressure cold taps/loos.

 

[plumbingm8]

hi,

I have been reading through the thread and it all seems a bit confused, it might be worth giving salamander a call and they will be able to advise you what you need and the best way to install, there number is 0191 516 2002.

might help sort it??

 

[Justin Passing]

There's not really any confusion, when I got there to have a look it was as expected in terms of layout, worse in terms of quality.
Spot the errors:

The flexies aren't supposed to be bent
It's resting on vermiculite which will jiggle out from underneath
They put AAVs on the inlet, and left them open so they sucked air
they put that trip in the LOFT with a 90 yr old user
they connected the socket to the ancient lighting circuit
they didn't connect any earth (until later, down in the airing cupd where they should have put the pump and electrics..)
they left the ONE gate valve jammed wide open
if/when it leaks, there's nowhere to turn the water off
they connected too far from the cylinder
they connected with inadequate head from the cistern
they have air-traps in the pipes
The frost protection is plain silly. I looked around for a box to put over the lot (it's a draughty loft) and found the junk they'd thrown aside
They wanted an extra £66 to connect an earth. They didn't get it.
They left mud all over the loft ladder and didn't mention that one of the rungs' rivets had broken so the tread collapsed when you stepped on it.

At every turn they tried to lie their way out with lame excuses.
Scum.

 

[plumbingm8]

Hi,

yes I would agree that's terrible, so essentially it looks like you are going to have to start again, if anything crops up whilst correcting this install just drop a message on here and I will try my best to help.

cheers

 

[2point8ghiax]

I'm no expert, but one reason for having a separate cold connection from loft tank to pump is safety. At the moment, if the loft tank emptied for some reason (jammed ballcock, etc), the hot from the cylinder would continue being pumped for a while after the cold has stopped. Could lead to scalding.

I was always told that the pump's cold connection to loft tank should be lower than the connection to the cylinder, so that if the tank runs dry, the hot stops flowing to shower before the cold ceases.

I'm thinking that your installation may be dangerous.

 

[Madrab]

Oh dear, if you mum is 90 then that needs ripped out and a proper install performed I'm afraid.

It may be time for an independent survey of that work and a report sent to the installers with a 'Please correct this installation in line with the MI or please supply a refund' request.

 

[Justin Passing]

cold connection to loft tank should be lower than the connection to the cylinder

You're right, I'd forgotten that one. I think if both supplies dry up together the hot would stop when the vent emptied, which would be pretty soon.
It is a thermostatic mixer which should help.

The installer's attitude is that he's done a load like that and it's OK.
Mum just doesn't want any fuss. I'd rather pay somene else than keep this muppet anywhere near. Not "right" but she'd lay awake worrying.

The main concern I have is that if the pump starts leaking (eg because it doesn't like the air and overheats) there's no obvious isolating/service valve to turn the HW supply off, so it would flood the place.

 

[Madrab]

You should be able to isolate the hot feed into the cylinder surely? Check if there's a valve on the cold supply feeding the HW cylinder near to it, if it starts to leak HW then turn that off and that should stop that running.

The flexies aren't supposed to be bent - No they shouldn't
It's resting on vermiculite which will jiggle out from underneath - Yep fair point
They put AAVs on the inlet, and left them open so they sucked air - The bottle vent caps need to be open to release captured air and they shouldn't suck air in by design so that's not an issue, more though that they can and do leak after a time so manual air vents may have been better
they put that trip in the LOFT with a 90 yr old user - yep, not very good practice but not really an outright fail
they connected the socket to the ancient lighting circuit - no - really should be plugged into the ring circuit or have it's own circuit and certainly not run off a 6A supply.
they didn't connect any earth (until later, down in the airing cupd where they should have put the pump and electrics..) - Yup - is there any other pipe cross bonding in the house?
they left the ONE gate valve jammed wide open - Again not good practice - if/when it leaks, there's nowhere to turn the water off - no HW cylinder supply isolation valve in same cupboard where the cylinder lives?
they connected too far from the cylinder - if it has a good supply and the pump's being fed then it should be ok but shouldn't be over 5m in pipe length away
they connected with inadequate head from the cistern - again if it has an adequate supply and the pump's being fed then it should be OK
they have air-traps in the pipes - Where? Are there pipes in the run(s) that are rising up above the pump/cylinder/cistern that don't have bleed points?
The frost protection is plain silly. I looked around for a box to put over the lot (it's a draughty loft) and found the junk they'd thrown aside - Fair point but not really a fail
They wanted an extra £66 to connect an earth. They didn't get it. - as above, out of interest are the pipes cross bonded anywhere else in the house?
They left mud all over the loft ladder and didn't mention that one of the rungs' rivets had broken so the tread collapsed when you stepped on it. bad customer service and dangerous practice
Overall install isn't too clever and could be better thought out for sure and if there was space in the area of the cylinder then that's where is should have gone

Not looking to excuse any of the installers bad practices, which there are a few but I do have to say that the install isn't an all out fail and pumps installed in attic spaces away from the supplies can and do work quite happily as long as supplies and flow are adequate. Where it utterly fails is that specific install isn't covered by the manufacturers warranty by any stretch of the imagination as it doesn't follow their MI's and therefore warranty calls will not be honoured.

 

[Justin Passing]

We agree then, pretty much

QUOTing Madrab,...
The flexies aren't supposed to be bent - No they shouldn't
It's resting on vermiculite which will jiggle out from underneath - Yep fair point
They put AAVs on the inlet, and left them open so they sucked air - The bottle vent caps need to be open to release captured air and they shouldn't suck air in by design so that's not an issue, more though that they can and do leak after a time so manual air vents may have been better

If I try sucking on the water inlet to an AAV held in the normal vertical position, cap open,
the float drops, uncovering the vent hole. I can suck air in, which is what the pump does.
I shut them so they won't leak. It has at least stopped the sucking air & gurgling. Putting them on the outlets would have made more sense, no?

they put that trip in the LOFT with a 90 yr old user - yep, not very good practice but not really an outright fail
they connected the socket to the ancient lighting circuit - no - really should be plugged into the ring circuit or have it's own circuit and certainly not run off a 6A supply.

It's also 50's rubber (not to be disturbed, apparently) cables, with no earth on lighting circuits. They ran a T&E to the immersion junction box just to pinch an earth. They might as well have put a socket on the Imm heater supply (a 16A MCB'd spur) and plugged the pump in there. Not quite to the regs, but accessible and properly fused. Hmm I didn't check their plug fuse - bet it's 13A!!.

they didn't connect any earth (until later, down in the airing cupd where they should have put the pump and electrics..) - Yup - is there any other pipe cross bonding in the house?

Gas yes; water, not sure tbh. Most of their work is plastic of course.

they left the ONE gate valve jammed wide open - Again not good practice - if/when it leaks, there's nowhere to turn the water off - no HW cylinder supply isolation valve in same cupboard where the cylinder lives?
Behind the cylinder, yes, which Mum can't get to. And it would shut all the house HW. Surely any appliance like a pump needs an iso valve? Quarter turn lever type I'd have thought best.

they connected too far from the cylinder - if it has a good supply and the pump's being fed then it should be ok but shouldn't be over 5m in pipe length away
they connected with inadequate head from the cistern - again if it has an adequate supply and the pump's being fed then it should be OK
It's over 10m pipe length. The hot pipe goes down from the cylinder to below the floorboards, 5m under a bedroom, 2m under the bathroom to where the bath taps were, then 2m under where the bath was, then UP the stud wall 2.5m to the pump, which is where the air trap is.
The original guessed layout was about right, though the horiz distance is more. Blue (cold) pipe connected - at the pump..

they have air-traps in the pipes - Where? Are there pipes in the run(s) that are rising up above the pump/cylinder/cistern that don't have bleed points?

I'm interpreting the rising part far right as an "air trap". If enough air gets stuck in there the pump spins in air. I tried opening the basin tap, which it doesn't suck from, thankfully. Weedy pump!

Pump is on the loft floor - or rather the plasterboard of the bathroom ceiling. The pipes above the pump are a few inches from the level of the water in the cistern, assuming it doesn't drop. The MI say 600mm below the base of the cistern, so it's about 1m too high. It's not a neg head pump, and it's operating on a few inches head - unless you add the "pull" from the shower head which would be less than a metre below where the pump is.

The frost protection is plain silly. I looked around for a box to put over the lot (it's a draughty loft) and found the junk they'd thrown aside - Fair point but not really a fail
Contrary to MI though - suppose the pump freezes solid, bursts a gasket..

They wanted an extra £66 to connect an earth. They didn't get it. - as above, out of interest are the pipes cross bonded anywhere else in the house?
They left mud all over the loft ladder and didn't mention that one of the rungs' rivets had broken so the tread collapsed when you stepped on it. bad customer service and dangerous practice
Overall install isn't too clever and could be better thought out for sure and if there was space in the area of the cylinder then that's where is should have gone.
Agreed. There IS room in the airing cupboard.


Job, anyone??! Southampton. (Outside Madrab's patch I daresay
Minor, ordinary reg infringements allowed, but muppets need not apply!