Not the ones with 6 electric showers! (If there are any.)
If you already know the answers, you don't need any more advice.
But our opinion is that it's more difficult than a typical large family house.
Qty of showers, cookers and hobs in a 6 bed HMO.
- Thread starter Jasonss
- Start date
Not the ones with 6 electric showers! (If there are any.)
If you already know the answers, you don't need any more advice.
But our opinion is that it's more difficult than a typical large family house.
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this is getting taken out of context a little.
the HMO is treated just like a standard house. The regulations are very similar however a few extra things have to be taken into account.
i understand that it could or should be treated a little different, however there isnt really much difference regarding actual regulations that have to be met.
if you choose to go above and beyond then thats a different issue.
i also agree the situation may need looking at differently.
there is no way i was even asking about 6x electrial showers.
the question was, if i had 2x electrical cookers, how many electrical showers could i realistically have?
the other question was, if i had 1x electrical cooker how many electrical showers could i realistically have?
the last question was if i had no electrical ovens how many electrical showers could i realistically have?
the idea is to have 4x ensuites and 1x shared bathroom. all would have a shower.
so realistically how many showers should/could be electric, and how many showers should/could be run from the boiler.
the HMO is treated just like a standard house. The regulations are very similar however a few extra things have to be taken into account.
i understand that it could or should be treated a little different, however there isnt really much difference regarding actual regulations that have to be met.
if you choose to go above and beyond then thats a different issue.
i also agree the situation may need looking at differently.
there is no way i was even asking about 6x electrial showers.
the question was, if i had 2x electrical cookers, how many electrical showers could i realistically have?
the other question was, if i had 1x electrical cooker how many electrical showers could i realistically have?
the last question was if i had no electrical ovens how many electrical showers could i realistically have?
the idea is to have 4x ensuites and 1x shared bathroom. all would have a shower.
so realistically how many showers should/could be electric, and how many showers should/could be run from the boiler.
No, it isn't.
There are hardly any regulations if you want to let your whole house to a family.
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I wouldn't be fitting any electric showers. A few years ago we did the wiring in a block of 20 or so retirement apartments. All got their central heating and hot water from a pair of boilers and a pair of unvented cylinders. Each apartment had a meter for heating and hot water. The cylinders each had two 5KW 3phase immersion elements as backup if the boilers were out of action. A building (however small) with 6 bathrooms is not a standard setup and care will have to be taken in the design plumbing and heating systems to ensure they are not unsafe or just totally useless.
In my opinion a single phase supply is inadequate for the proposed building use, even with 0 electric showers.
In my opinion a single phase supply is inadequate for the proposed building use, even with 0 electric showers.
And lets not forget, unless all of the rooms are single rooms. There could, at any one time, be 12 people wanting a shower in the morning.
Obviously I know they can't all shower at the same time, but it increases the chances of shower overlap
Obviously I know they can't all shower at the same time, but it increases the chances of shower overlap
This is not a rhetorical question - it is very real, and very important, and one that you must be able to answer:
Why aren't you asking your electrician?
As others have told you that is NOT true.
There are there strict regulations about the facilities and services provided to the tenants in an HMO.
You also have to understand the need to avoid conflicts in the house, conflicts between tenants and conflicts between you and the tenants.
i want a clear understanding and knowledge of what is and isnt needed to do that setup. im not trying to "diy" anything.
if the setup doesnt work then the house plan may need to change to accommodate it.
im getting different views and answers from all over the place and the confusion comes from this possibly being HMO.
if the setup doesnt work then the house plan may need to change to accommodate it.
im getting different views and answers from all over the place and the confusion comes from this possibly being HMO.
If you are renting indivdual rooms in a house to people who are not related to each other then that house is a HMO
If you own and / or manage an HMO and do not comply with the regulations then you will be liable for some very hefty fines. One unhappy tenant reports the state of the house to the local council and if you have not complied with the regulations then you are in trouble.
The other thing you can't do is to design an HMO by asking on a DIY forum whatever random questions happen to occur to you.
If the roof of the building needed replacing, would you get up there and DIY, or would you engage the services of a roofer?
If a tree in the garden needed cutting back, would you be swinging from branch to branch with a chainsaw, or would you engage the services of a tree surgeon?
If you want the electrical installation for an HMO designed, engage the services of an electrical engineer.
If you want the heating system for an HMO designed, engage the services of a heating engineer.
Indeed, as described there is no "possibly" about it - it is most definitely an HMO.
Regulations on the property, regulations on it's management, regulations on the landlord - for a property this size, in many locations you will need a licence to run it.
I'm not surprised. Different people will have their own "pet" technologies - while others will have hate the same thing. For example, try looking for mentions of "thermal store" in the plumbing section. You'll find a few mentions in favour, and a number of comments along the lines of "complete rubbish and I'd never ever suggest one" - usually from the same people who think a combi is the best option for everyone
Part of your problem is that you haven't done all the investigations needed to answer the question - and electrics is only part of it. To start with, assuming that people will want to shower at the same time, do you have the water supply to cope ? So what pressure do you get from the mains ? And what happens to that pressure when you try and run 4, 5, 6 showers off it ?
If it isn't adequate, can you get it upgraded ? At a reasonable cost ?
You may find that you either have to downgrade your specs, or look at workarounds. One workaround may be to install a large buffer tank - but then you'll need pumps to re-pressurise the system. Or you may be able to just fit accumulators. I've stayed in a hotel where they've got this wrong - the showering experience "wasn't good".
So, you've worked out how to get the flow rate, now you need to heat it.
Forget about lecky. A half decent shower will pull 40A (or more), you've a 100A supply less other loads like washing machine, kettles, cookers, etc etc. Gas is 1/3 the cost.
But now you are back to supply capacity again - I bet you can't get enough gas out of the pipe to heat the water on demand. But you won't know unless you ask your supplier just how much you can get out.
So we're almost certainly into heat storage. You can have open vented cylinders (naff all pressure), unvented cylinders (need all the safety gear, regular servicing, restrictions on siting), thermal stores (my personal favourite) & heat banks. For the latter you have a choice of direct or indirect - indirect having better reheat capacity. To a certain extent you can trade off boiler capacity and stored water capacity - at one extreme you can have storage large enough to supply all reasonable shower requirements and take all day to reheat, at the other you can have small storage but need bigger boilers.
With thermal stores & heat banks you can also run the heating from them - avoids the issues trying to balance the incompatible characteristics of boilers (minimum/fixed flow rate) and heating systems (variable flow rates).
I'd go with a number of smaller boilers rather than one large one - that way a boiler failure (and they will fail sooner or later) won't leave you with nothing at all.
And with storage, you have the option of electric immersion heaters for backup. Potentially you can make these fairly powerful, especially if you use priority relays to turn some of them off when (eg) the oven is turned on. With a thermal store or heat bank, the immersion heaters can supply the heating as long as there's enough capacity - that's what I did in my rental flat, but the heating load is only about 2kW.
With multiple boilers, you can possibly leave out the immersion heaters - or at least keep them to a minimum.
So, has that given you enough to go on ?
And whereas people might well put up with that in a hotel if they aren't there for long, grumble about it, vow never to return etc, they're likely to have far less tolerance of it if it's their daily experience in their home.
The OP's not posted in any of his threads for about a week - hopefully because he has now grasped the size and complexity of the task, and has realised that he cannot plough on DIYing on the basis that "its just the same as any other 6 bed house".
6 Rooms is a bit of an awkward amount... the loading would add upto a significant amount, but its too few to rely on laws of averages in order to apply large amounts of diversity.
I know of a place that has 28 rooms, each with an 8.5kw shower and a standard free-standing cooker as well as storage heating in all the rooms. The supply is 200A three phase and doesn't give any issues. Considered pro rata it might look like a 100A SP supply would be good for 4.6 rooms with the same loading. Which aside from how do you have 0.6 of a room, it would be a very risky design!
I know of a place that has 28 rooms, each with an 8.5kw shower and a standard free-standing cooker as well as storage heating in all the rooms. The supply is 200A three phase and doesn't give any issues. Considered pro rata it might look like a 100A SP supply would be good for 4.6 rooms with the same loading. Which aside from how do you have 0.6 of a room, it would be a very risky design!
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