RCD Tripping -any suggestions

[EFLImpudence]

I think people are confusing the definitions we use for Earth Faults and Earth Leakage.

 

[ETAF]

A little more info, just discussed , my wife turned the Main Centre Light using the ceiling pull cordon in the En-Suite and it came on and then the RCD tripped
I removed the Main Centre light and completely disconnected from the Wiring Terminals in the ceiling.

So maybe theres a fault with the ceiling switch which i assumed Just had a Live feed & return on 1 T&E , and so unlikely to be a problem, all plastic so would not expect it to be earthed - BUT maybe , looking at the JB earlier , as we only have 1 JB i can see.

Previously the electrician when he wired the Kitchen i know he brought all the live and neutrals to the switches.

I will take that apart first tomorrow , before stripping out the JB

Thanks to all for your continued replies and if anyone has further suggestion , all welcome before i start mid-morning tomorrow.
need to see if i still have a 20A JB available , otherwise a trip to screwfix.

 

[elite123]

Worth checking the shaver socket before visiting the loft, I had similar fault that was caused by one with nothing connected

 

[ETAF]

thanks for info on shaver socket, I will do very easy to get at the shaver , in fact i have been meaning to replace as when i specified I did not realise that tooth brushes could not be used in standard sockets , this one has shaver ONLY,so i can get one with a toothbrush symbol as well, so guests can recharge thier toothbrush, not sure about rechargeable shavers either.

Also no switch on this, so directly connected L/N/E to the CU via the JB of course - interesting

Both in stock @ Screwfix & toolstation, pretty much next to each other

https://www.screwfix.com/p/mk-dual-voltage-shaver-socket-115-230v-white/55378
https://www.toolstation.com/mk-shav...xpFGIBlew4tbH7ynbh9qQ6Pc_egWZZahoCZrQQAvD_BwE

 

[ericmark]

I have also been pulling my hair out trying to find RCD tripping faults without the tools, and even with the tools have gone around in circles. Well I say with the tools, I have looked at a clamp-on meter able to measure 0.001 amp, but never bought on, have the insulation tester, but my clamp-on meter starts at 0.1 amp.

All AC cables will have a leakage, for a single 30 mA RCD this should be no more than 9 mA, but I have no idea if the installations I have done comply, as I don't have the meter.

So it seemed old house would get a batch of trips, I would get the insulation tester out, no fault found, and I would get the RCD tester out, and did not trip at 15 mA and did at 30 mA both positive and negative half cycles. And then it would stop, I had done nothing to cause it to stop, but could be another 2 years before it tripped again, then another batch, and this went on some 25 years, since they were first fitted, never did find a fault.

I guess it was a spike on the supply line, some times resetting one RCD would trip the other, they were to be fair very early versions of the 30 mA RCD not marked as it if type AC, type A etc, don't think that was invented then. So when I moved here, it was all RCBO, didn't want that again.

But arcing can cause RCD's to trip, specially the older ones, and I have had it where changing a plastic light switch stopped them tripping, and in theory there is no way a plastic switch can cause it.

 

[ETAF]

But arcing can cause RCD's to trip, specially the older ones, and I have had it where changing a plastic light switch stopped them tripping, and in theory there is no way a plastic switch can cause it.

Thats interesting , this has tripped and stays tripped , cannot put the breaker back up , with this circuit connected.
Hence why I started pulling everything out the ring main, OFF the one Switched Spur i have, which only left one of the OVEN's switched that off at breaker, and then had to go a bit further into the CU and pulled the lighting OFF , figured that was the only circuit with any possible loads on

Interesting having had the CU installed Late 2018 , shame he didn't fit the RCDO versions , I didn't know about them.
Also summer 2019 when my son-in-law moved into a new house also had electrician in and check everything out, done some rewiring and replace the CU - and thats a RCD/MCB
I guess its price

 

[ETAF]

took the L,N,E for that T&E circuit out of the consumer unit - and have a short almost zero ohms between Earth & Neutral on the circuit.
Removed the Saver adapter and the en-suite pull cord - now only the other group RCd trips !!!!!!!
Removed the cable again - everything else is working fine - so i guess i'm in loft looking at the JB now
He has put 3 T&E into the Ensuite pull cord ceiling switch , which given its awkward position in the loft seems a strand choice.And also left the old Red/Black switch cable taped up
Anyway a Short between Neutral & Earth with all three wires L,N,E for that T&E disconnected at the CU - cant be good. Still trying to work out why it suddenly went , NO water i can see anywhere - will be a pain if it is a cable which is in the false wall.
The shaver socket my not have worked as the Screws were on the L and the N insulation and not the copper !!!!!!! That seems like. school boy error to me - I did that once in the 70's on a house rewire , but was soon found on testing

 

[winston1]

thanks for info on shaver socket, I will do very easy to get at the shaver , in fact i have been meaning to replace as when i specified I did not realise that tooth brushes could not be used in standard sockets , this one has shaver ONLY,so i can get one with a toothbrush symbol as well, so guests can recharge thier toothbrush, not sure about rechargeable shavers either.

Not true. When your socket was manufactured electric rechargeable toothbrushes did not exist. There is no reason your socket cannot be used with a toothbrush. Have you tried it?

 

[ETAF]

There is no reason your socket cannot be used with a toothbrush. Have you tried it?

No - Any idea why they have shaver only and shaver /toothbrush versions

 

[winston1]

No - Any idea why they have shaver only and shaver /toothbrush versions

The only difference is the label. As I said:

When your socket was manufactured electric rechargeable toothbrushes did not exist

 

[333rocky333]

No - Any idea why they have shaver only and shaver /toothbrush versions

It is said, shaver outlets are only rated for Intermittent use, whereas Toothbrush ones are rated for continuous use

 

[bernardgreen]

The only difference is the label.

A shaver socket has a built in isolation transformer to reduce to near zero the risk of electrocution when using a razor that is not powered by a re-chargeable battery but remains plugged in while in use.

The design of this transformer is a compromise between size and power. A shaver socket may become warm when used for a long shave ( 15 minutes perhaps ) but could become hot when used to supply power to a charger for a long period of time ( over night perhaps )

Most have a thermal safety switch, some while reset when cooled down, a few cannot be reset and the socket has to be replaced.

 

[ericmark]

No - Any idea why they have shaver only and shaver /toothbrush versions

The one with shaver only is designed for intermittent use, and the one with shaver/tooth brush is designed for continuous use, in the main there is a switch that turns on the supply to transformer when the plug is inserted, some of the older units with shaver only if the transformer is continuously powered it gets too hot and discolours the plastic, even unplugging the lead from shaver rather than shaver socket can cause the over heating with the older type, as anything plugged in activates the supply to transformer.

I have never really found a tooth brush which needs plugging in to use, shavers yes, but tooth brush are normally rechargeable, so

The only difference is the label. As I said:

When your socket was manufactured electric rechargeable toothbrushes did not exist

May be correct if you plug in the tooth brush to use, but that is rarely the case, there were some tooth pik things that were powered as used, but these used around 300 VA and the shaver outlet is rated 200 VA so the UK version had to be battery backed, so in real terms if it has the tooth brush mark it is continuously rated and with only shaver intermittent rated.

Why shaver or tooth brush needs to be recharged in a bathroom I have never worked out, thought the whole idea of battery powered is to use cordless? So I don't want my wife or daughter shaving their legs with my shaver, so would only take it into the bathroom to use, and the idea of some one else using my tooth brush ugg.

But seems your sorted anyway, fault large enough to show on multi-meter, I had it in daughters house, some one was not good stripping wire with a knife it seems, and had nicked the neutral, and the fixing screw for a socket touched it, took me around 3 hours to find showily getting closer to socket in question, most the time taken getting access to sockets.

 

[ETAF]

Thanks again to everyone support and advice

But seems your sorted anyway, fault large enough to show on multi-meter, I had it in daughters house, some one was not good stripping wire with a knife it seems, and had nicked the neutral, and the fixing screw for a socket touched it, took me around 3 hours to find showily getting closer to socket in question, most the time taken getting access to sockets.

Yep, about to take the JB in loft to bits
At least a hard fault so should find . Poor workmanship found from this electrician, so I hope its the same and not a cable issue in the partition wall , as thats going to be difficult to replace , not its tilled etc.
I'll keep you all informed

if it has the tooth brush mark it is continuously rated and with only shaver intermittent rated.
...
Why shaver or tooth brush needs to be recharged in a bathroom

Thats a good point, I'll just make any guests charge in bedroom thats not a problem , we have enough sockets in the spare bedrooms now they have been re-wired - good point - thnks

 

[ETAF]

still not fixed
found the cable with a short on N&E in JB , so removed completely , also checked out the layout and how all connected up, had to repair a N in the Pull Switch !!!!!! 3 N into a 2 way wago !!!!! and as i moved one N pulled out!!!! - replaced with a small chock block for now , while I get a 3way , that and the other issues mentioned, better off doing this stuff myself, would at least make a much better & Safer job even if not partP

Reconnected everything except the Faulty cable and now have some lights -
getting there