Re-siting switch from hallway to bedroom

[ban-all-sheds]

Isolate circuit and strip back another inch of sheath from the no earth cable, with luck youre expose one

The thing is though that the OP won't know if the circuit has a functioning, continuous earth without testing.

 

[Chri5]

Isolate circuit and strip back another inch of sheath from the no earth cable, with luck youre expose one

The thing is though that the OP won't know if the circuit has a functioning, continuous earth without testing.

True- ideally and certainly before an metal based lighting or switches are deployed, they will need testing.

In basic format ( for the op) what we are saying is that the earth system needs to feed all the way back, each cable does have two ends and both ends should be terminated.

The idea being that at all points of the earth route continuity from end to end exists.

A very basic test would be to get a multi meter with a beep continuity function, and a long lead. One end of the lead is fixed to the main building earth point, the other one on one of the meter probes.

Then at every socket, every switch and every lighting rose or junction box the other meter probe is touched on the earth. You would then have a beep if the wiring earth goes back to the main earth.

Continuity path being building earth, long lead, in to meter out of meter, earth of cable, earth at fuse board, fuse board earthed to main.

If earths are correct, and metal back boxes are behind the sockets and switches. The probe to test will work by touching the faceplate screw on the socket or switch. That is a must for all sockets, not always so for switches.

The reason for that is that the socket screw is metal, touching a metal back box which is earthed via either or the cable earth or the earth present via the cable terminated in the socket.

 

[riveralt]

I have done some more investigating in the loft and have found a junction box which there is a picture of this below that has been taken.
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/2691/img0649z.jpg
I am presuming that to add the earth to the upstairs lighting circuit, this will need to be re-wired from the fuse box?

Yes that is correct. But do you already have an lighting circuit earth in the loft?
Remember just because there are earth wires there, as others have said, you will need to prove continuity between the loft earth wires and your main earthing terminal - that requires test equipment (multi-meter) and/or opening the fusebox.
The long lead test as mentioned requires you to be able to put one prong of the multi-meter on the main earth terminal and the other on the earth wire in the loft and get a low ohm reading.

We also have an old wire fuse box if this helps.

Well actually that doesn't help because the alternate way to test without a long lead is to open the fusebox and start undoing cables.
If you are not comfortable or confident in doing this then leave well alone especially as this type of fusebox (Old wylex) is very cramped inside and if you cannot isolate power to the fusebox via an isolator (between the fusebox and the meter) then you will be working while live cables are around.
Inside the fusebox you will firstly have to identify the upstairs lighting circuit cable. Then see if that cable is connected to the earth bar. If it is then there is a possibility of an earth already existing in the loft.
You will then need to remove the lighting circuits live conductor (red normally) from the fusebox and put it and the cables earth together in a terminal block.
Then you go to the loft where you think an earth exists and test between the live and earth in the loft - low ohm reading means you have continuity and an earth in the loft.
If no cable exists or there is a break in the earth continuity to the loft then you could run an single earth cable from the fusebox earth bar to the junction box in the loft.
If all this seems too much then either get an electrician in or revert to your original plan.

 

[karlywarly]

I have done some more investigating in the loft and have found a junction box which there is a picture of this below that has been taken.
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/2691/img0649z.jpg
I am presuming that to add the earth to the upstairs lighting circuit, this will need to be re-wired from the fuse box?

Yes that is correct. But do you already have an lighting circuit earth in the loft?
Remember just because there are earth wires there, as others have said, you will need to prove continuity between the loft earth wires and your main earthing terminal - that requires test equipment (multi-meter) and/or opening the fusebox.
The long lead test as mentioned requires you to be able to put one prong of the multi-meter on the main earth terminal and the other on the earth wire in the loft and get a low ohm reading.

We also have an old wire fuse box if this helps.

Well actually that doesn't help because the alternate way to test without a long lead is to open the fusebox and start undoing cables.
If you are not comfortable or confident in doing this then leave well alone especially as this type of fusebox (Old wylex) is very cramped inside and if you cannot isolate power to the fusebox via an isolator (between the fusebox and the meter) then you will be working while live cables are around.
Inside the fusebox you will firstly have to identify the upstairs lighting circuit cable. Then see if that cable is connected to the earth bar. If it is then there is a possibility of an earth already existing in the loft.
You will then need to remove the lighting circuits live conductor (red normally) from the fusebox and put it and the cables earth together in a terminal block.
Then you go to the loft where you think an earth exists and test between the live and earth in the loft - low ohm reading means you have continuity and an earth in the loft.
If no cable exists or there is a break in the earth continuity to the loft then you could run an single earth cable from the fusebox earth bar to the junction box in the loft.
If all this seems too much then either get an electrician in or revert to your original plan.

Going to go back to my original plans as it will save a lot of messing around.

So now i have got all my cables in place ready to be wired up but the thing i am unsure about (after looking at the single way lighting wiki) is that with the light i am getting the feed from only having a live and neutral, can i simply connect a terminal block to these and run a feed to the bedroom ceiling rose and then the switch goes to the ceiling rose as well?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Going to go back to my original plans as it will save a lot of messing around.

You have discovered that your lighting circuit has been fiddled with by an idiot who did not understand what he was fiddling with.

You cannot just ignore that.

So now i have got all my cables in place ready to be wired up but the thing i am unsure about (after looking at the single way lighting wiki) is that with the light i am getting the feed from only having a live and neutral, can i simply connect a terminal block to these and run a feed to the bedroom ceiling rose and then the switch goes to the ceiling rose as well?

I'm struggling to understand how that proposal relates to this requirement:

In my hallway i have a double switch, 1 switch operates the light in the hallway and the other operates the light in the main bedroom. In the bedroom i have a pull-cord switch.

I would like to remove the pull-cord switch in the bedroom and add a switch near the door in the main bedroom and remove the option to turn the light on from the double switch in the hallway so you can only turn the light on from within the bedroom and.

 

[karlywarly]

Going to go back to my original plans as it will save a lot of messing around.

You have discovered that your lighting circuit has been fiddled with by an idiot who did not understand what he was fiddling with.

You cannot just ignore that.

So now i have got all my cables in place ready to be wired up but the thing i am unsure about (after looking at the single way lighting wiki) is that with the light i am getting the feed from only having a live and neutral, can i simply connect a terminal block to these and run a feed to the bedroom ceiling rose and then the switch goes to the ceiling rose as well?

I'm struggling to understand how that proposal relates to this requirement:

In my hallway i have a double switch, 1 switch operates the light in the hallway and the other operates the light in the main bedroom. In the bedroom i have a pull-cord switch.

I would like to remove the pull-cord switch in the bedroom and add a switch near the door in the main bedroom and remove the option to turn the light on from the double switch in the hallway so you can only turn the light on from within the bedroom and.

With regards to going back to my original plans, i was weighing up the options if it was viable to have an earth wired up to my lighting ring as it doesn't have one and whether it was a complex job or not or if i would need to get a sparky in. There was no need to go around calling me an idiot!

I didn't know that i could get fixed down lighters that were double insulated and don't need an earth which i would like to replace my current light fittings with some of these.

I originally wanted to re-site the bedroom light switch to inside the bedroom then removing this from the double switch in the hallway that controls that light and also removing the pull cord switch that has no use to me and this has been done.

Now i currently have no working light and switch in the bedroom and would like to wire these back up so they work hence the last question which i was unsure of something.

 

[Chri5]

So now i have got all my cables in place ready to be wired up but the thing i am unsure about (after looking at the single way lighting wiki) is that with the light i am getting the feed from only having a live and neutral, can i simply connect a terminal block to these and run a feed to the bedroom ceiling rose and then the switch goes to the ceiling rose as well?

I'm not sure why this seems so difficult.

Somewhere in the loft you have a LN and (maybe) earth for the lighting circuit.

From that you run a TE cable to the ceiling rose or light fitting, from there you have a cable out to the switch.

The one way lighting in the wiki clearly shows how to wire a rose, and what sleeve to put on the switched live, so surely there's no need to expand any further?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

There was no need to go around calling me an idiot!

Unless you were responsible for this:

it wasn't you I was calling an idiot.

 

[karlywarly]

There was no need to go around calling me an idiot!

Unless you were responsible for this:

it wasn't you I was calling an idiot.

Not responsible for that wiring.

Jumped the gun a bit there so my apologies

On another note, the light switch and light have no been wired up and all working.

Thanks to everyone for their help

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Jumped the gun a bit there so my apologies

No worries.

Looking back I note that it's only an assumption that a previous incumbent cut back the earth.

But in general I'd suggest that anybody who doesn't know that their circuit earths are sound get them checked rather than assume - it could make the difference between life and death.