Replace storage heaters?

[Akustik]

I'm thinking about replacing my storage heaters with newer models as the old ones are not keeping the place warm enough and I end up needing to use an additional oil radiator during the day. This is turning out quite costly. So I'm looking at maybe switching to a newer model like the Dimplex XLE's.
However, I don't know how old my storage heaters are and if the switch will actually yield better heating or if I'll just end up spending money on a shinier metal box.

The heaters I have now are Alto AL3624 and Alto AL3627. I've looked online and I can't find anything about these heaters such as a manufacturing date (only pare parts). I'm looking for a date of manufacture so I can see how old thee are which might give me an idea on performance.

I live in a 40 sqm flat, first floor (top floor) and my windows are double glazed but aluminium frame ... and there's a lot of windows.

Does anyone have any insight into this?

 

[JohnD]

New ones will use the same amount of electricity to produce the same amount of heat. All electric heaters are equally efficient.

New ones might have better timers or something, but the amount you pay for them will not be recouped in smaller bills.

If you have a large room, or a room without a heater, you could get an extra one. If you want to save money, and have a car, you can pick up used ones for next to nothing, from people fitting central heating (or making the mistake of thinking that new ones are more efficient). The trick is to unscrew the covers and take the bricks out. They are then easy to carry and you refit the bricks in your new home. When I had solar panels installed, I got a couple of storage heaters free, on a local Facebook site.

Maybe buy some blinds, or Lined curtains. Or both.

Is there any way to insulate the roof?

 

[ericmark]

I have to agree with @JohnD the storage heaters were never that good, to have enough insulation to stop the heat escaping when you don't want the home heated within a reasonable size is a major problem. There were some home with central heat stores with bricks and water, but this needed to be as part of the design of the home. In the main it was simply not central heating, there was nothing central about it.

The economy 7 was often replaced with economy 10, and today with smart meters there is no reason for not having more then one heat up time, the possible loss of the radio 4 time signal is likely to cause some major changes, the old system used a central contactor and a separate fuse box, where the newer systems have a link wire and the contactor/relay is built into the heater, allowing for a boost when required, however simple physics energy in = energy out, so often the answer is to have better insulation rather than more control with the heaters.

The major problem is weight and space, bricks made of iron are heavy, there is a little clay in them to bind them together, but main component is iron ore, and that is heavy, any storage system needs space, and in a flat likely you don't have the space. Only time I have lived in a flat it had a heat pump, darn expensive in the summer, but no real option in Hong Kong where I lived in a flat, as to how a heat pump would work in the UK not sure, but when you don't need to heat/cool in the day, likely it will be comparable with resistive heating using off peak.

 

[SUNRAY]

New ones will use the same amount of electricity to produce the same amount of heat. All electric heaters are equally efficient.

New ones might have better timers or something, but the amount you pay for them will not be recouped in smaller bills.

If you have a large room, or a room without a heater, you could get an extra one. If you want to save money, and have a car, you can pick up used ones for next to nothing, from people fitting central heating (or making the mistake of thinking that new ones are more efficient). The trick is to unscrew the covers and take the bricks out. They are then easy to carry and you refit the bricks in your new home. When I had solar panels installed, I got a couple of storage heaters free, on a local Facebook site.

Maybe buy some blinds, or Lined curtains. Or both.

Is there any way to insulate the roof?

They may not be more efficient but they are certainly more effective, my tenants are happy to say the changes I made has made the installation more efficient. They claimed their winter energy bill was half the previous year.

I have a rental property with NSH's, for several reasons (all amount to being a responsible landlord) I replaced rather than repaired the faults. The official figures for the new products knock spots off the official figures for the old (1972) units to the point the new 3.3KW exceeded the performance of the old 3.6KW and 2.4KW added together, (I spoke with my EPC inspector before doing any of this and very grateful I did)

I fitted one 3.3KW HHR unit with the promise I'd add a second if my tenant found it inadequate. from the first day they commented how much better it is, they both work from home now due to covid, only yesterday I checked with them - due to the predicted cold today - and they have confirmed it keeps them warm all day and evening which the two previous units didn't even before they developed faults.

At the same time I changed the bedroom NSH to a panel heater as they only required it heated for a short time in the morning and evening and there was never any heat left in the evening.

a little more detail: https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/new-storage-heaters.560821/page-2

 

[JohnD]

the new 3.3KW exceeded the performance of the old 3.6KW and 2.4KW added together...

What do you mean?

You're not saying it produced more heat for less electricity, that's impossible.

So was it better insulated and retained more heat instead of releasing it while the house was unoccupied?

 

[Akustik]

They may not be more efficient but they are certainly more effective, my tenants are happy to say the changes I made has made the installation more efficient. They claimed their winter energy bill was half the previous year.

I have a rental property with NSH's, for several reasons (all amount to being a responsible landlord) I replaced rather than repaired the faults. The official figures for the new products knock spots off the official figures for the old (1972) units to the point the new 3.3KW exceeded the performance of the old 3.6KW and 2.4KW added together, (I spoke with my EPC inspector before doing any of this and very grateful I did)

I fitted one 3.3KW HHR unit with the promise I'd add a second if my tenant found it inadequate. from the first day they commented how much better it is, they both work from home now due to covid, only yesterday I checked with them - due to the predicted cold today - and they have confirmed it keeps them warm all day and evening which the two previous units didn't even before they developed faults.

At the same time I changed the bedroom NSH to a panel heater as they only required it heated for a short time in the morning and evening and there was never any heat left in the evening.

a little more detail: https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/new-storage-heaters.560821/page-2

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too, but the heater you replaced are OLD. Mine are not that old, I think the flat was build in '82 and the heaters are not the original ones either, so they'd be 10-20 years old at most. Which is why I'm a bit hesitant, I don't know if the difference would be as big as yours.
People keep saying 1KW = 1KW, but it's not the size, it's how you use it ... or so they keep telling me.
I'd guess they retain heat better to ensure that it's not wasted during the night keeping an empty room warm.

 

[SUNRAY]

What do you mean?

You're not saying it produced more heat for less electricity,

oh course not. I didn't say that either, what I did say was:

They may not be more efficient but they are certainly more effective,

So was it better insulated and retained more heat instead of releasing it while the house was unoccupied?

according to the graphs I saw at the time the new heaters could release heat at a consistant level for a longer period,

The effect of that was my tenant found their working environment more comfortable right through the day and their leisure environment right through the evening using 3.3KW in place of 6KW of overnight heating and not having to use 'other' heating when the NSH's ran out

You're not saying it produced more heat for less electricity, that's impossible.

It looks like I am saying: they can produce more heat into the room later in the day for less electricity. You can interpret that any way you feel appropriate.

 

[SUNRAY]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too, but the heater you replaced are OLD. Mine are not that old, I think the flat was build in '82 and the heaters are not the original ones either, so they'd be 10-20 years old at most. Which is why I'm a bit hesitant, I don't know if the difference would be as big as yours.
People keep saying 1KW = 1KW, but it's not the size, it's how you use it ... or so they keep telling me.
I'd guess they retain heat better to ensure that it's not wasted during the night keeping an empty room warm.

My apologies, just looked at the lease, I mixed 2 properties up. This one started 1990.

 

[Akustik]

My apologies, just looked at the lease, I mixed 2 properties up. This one started 1990.

Who do you talk to about assessing what size heaters are appropriate for the property? Electrician or ..?

 

[JohnD]

You can calculate heat losses per room, in kW

You then have to multiply that by the number of hours to find kWh capacity needed.

There might be a bit more to it....

Try to work in kW, not BTUs unless you live in the 1960s

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[Diver Fred]

They may not be more efficient but they are certainly more effective, my tenants are happy to say the changes I made has made the installation more efficient. They claimed their winter energy bill was half the previous year.

I have a rental property with NSH's, for several reasons (all amount to being a responsible landlord) I replaced rather than repaired the faults. The official figures for the new products knock spots off the official figures for the old (1972) units to the point the new 3.3KW exceeded the performance of the old 3.6KW and 2.4KW added together, (I spoke with my EPC inspector before doing any of this and very grateful I did)

I fitted one 3.3KW HHR unit with the promise I'd add a second if my tenant found it inadequate. from the first day they commented how much better it is, they both work from home now due to covid, only yesterday I checked with them - due to the predicted cold today - and they have confirmed it keeps them warm all day and evening which the two previous units didn't even before they developed faults.

Interesting, verry interesting...

when I changed the NSH to a HHR one in my let property the tenant reported the running costs went up (& they provided Bill's to support it). Clearly everyone is different and your tenants may be using them differently or at a lower room temperature to my tenant.

HHR NSH 's control the amount of heat they output whilst traditional NSH's control the amount of energy in.

 

[SUNRAY]

Interesting, verry interesting...

when I changed the NSH to a HHR one in my let property the tenant reported the running costs went up (& they provided Bill's to support it). Clearly everyone is different and your tenants may be using them differently or at a lower room temperature to my tenant.

HHR NSH 's control the amount of heat they output whilst traditional NSH's control the amount of energy in.

Old NSH's control, the output with a flap, close it to keep the heat in. Very crude but somewhat functional or so I'm told.

My tenants stated they worked fine prior to lockdown as they would close them until evening. When they started working from home the old heaters ran out before the evening and they were having to use peakrate heating. Since changing, all of that peakrate use has stopped and they now have lower powered NSH heating. If what they say is correct, and I have no reason to think they would lie about it, I don't see why it should cost more.

Bear in mind when I looked at them some of the elements were faulty and I have no way of knowing when that happened, other than a very minor step in their energy bill which could have been for a different reason.

 

[JohnD]

some of the elements were faulty

That would reduce the energy used, hence cost and heat.

So comparison not valid.

 

[ebee]

Well when I went to school (Charles Dickens were just a lad back then) we were taught that to raise the temperture of a certain mass from one reading to another required a certain amount of energy input and that was unavoidable.
A fixed point in time and space as that chap in the blue box might say.
So the quicker/faster you transfer that heat will off course be affected by the ambient temperature and if you on a time variable tarrif you might pop over the slot of off peak cheaper to on peak dearer within a longer heat up time. otherwise no difference really.
Yea Canna change the laws of physics captain.

Take the EU change to kettle power a few years back.
Example you half the power in W of a kettle you might half the max demand half time world cup final or coronation st etc but you double the time taken to boil the kettle and add a bit more for longer loss to ambient temp so you are actually, very very slightly, more than doubling the power required.
I think it might have been better to limit the volume capacity to some compromise say for instance two mugs for tea rather than allow some folk to boil a kettle full of water for one cup or mug.

 

[StephenStephen]

Well when I went to school (Charles Dickens were just a lad back then) we were taught that to raise the temperture of a certain mass from one reading to another required a certain amount of energy input and that was unavoidable.
A fixed point in time and space as that chap in the blue box might say.
So the quicker/faster you transfer that heat will off course be affected by the ambient temperature and if you on a time variable tarrif you might pop over the slot of off peak cheaper to on peak dearer within a longer heat up time. otherwise no difference really.
Yea Canna change the laws of physics captain.

Take the EU change to kettle power a few years back.
Example you half the power in W of a kettle you might half the max demand half time world cup final or coronation st etc but you double the time taken to boil the kettle and add a bit more for longer loss to ambient temp so you are actually, very very slightly, more than doubling the power required.
I think it might have been better to limit the volume capacity to some compromise say for instance two mugs for tea rather than allow some folk to boil a kettle full of water for one cup or mug.

...unless of course you have a vacuum insulated kettle and boil it to 90 or 95 instead of 100...