Replacing ceiling light - but no earth in ceiling rose?

[BDacre]

Hi there, I've been through all the posts but can't seem to find one that matches my situation. We have tried to replace our kitchen light, and upon removing the very very old one, we've discovered two red wires. That's all - there is no earth.

We want to put up mains halogens on a metal rod, what can we do? I'm worried that it will be live if we do not earth it. How do we know which red wire to connect where? The old light was no help at all.

Please help, I'm sick of cooking in the dark!

 

[johnny_t]

It won't necessarily be live when working, but it has the potential to become live under a fault condition (which is bad).

Options you have are:

1) Root about (with the power off) and see if there is a trimmed back earth. Make sure it really is earthed before you rely on it.
2) Live without your metal fitting and replace it with a double-insulated plastic one instead (look for a square within a square symbol)
3) Given the absence of an earth possibly indicates very old wiring, consider a rewire.
4) Find a suitable transformer-controlled halogen.

 

[Screwed]

Just found the same thing in our kitchen last night. Went to put up some halogen lights, took out the old one and found the wiring is flex with no earth. We've just had an inspection and was told it was flex but wasn't told there was no earth protection. We have a new consumer unit, is it possible to run an earth from the block connection supplied with the new light fitting to a suitable earth elsewhere?

 

[dingbat]

BDacre, the only correct option is to have the lights rewired. At the very least get some second opinions from local registered electricians; there may be an interim solution, but you do need proper on-the-spot advice. Carry on cooking in the dark in the meantime.

Screwed, did you really have an inspection? Have you got schedules of inspections and test results? You can't go grabbing earths willy-nilly. If your lighting circuit has no earth it is effectively too old (at forty-plus) to remain in service and needs rewiring. Join the queue with BDa above.

 

[Screwed]

Yep, got the report here, Domestic Electrical Installation Periodic Inspection report, serial number starts DPN1 if that means anything?? Although we live in a converted flat, I'm fairly sure the wiring is no more than 20 years old, I will have a look at another light to see what that has in store....

 

[dingbat]

There should be a recorded observation of the lack of an earth, along with a departure code, which should be at the very least a 2. On the test schedules there will be no entry for either R1 + R2 or R2 for this circuit.

An observed departure such as this should also be backed up by a written recommendation for remedial work.

 

[Screwed]

I've read it again and although it states that the incorrect cable is used for the light it doesn't say anything about the lack of an earth or any remedy. Sounds like 100 quid down the drain..........

 

[simon_t]

We have just had our flat rewired and when it came to the point of connecting up to the mains the electrician found that the old wiring did not have and earth at all. We had to have EDF around to check to check it out and then link into the earth in the down strairs flat.

Mind some of the wiring was old lead shielded stuff...

 

[Taylortwocities]

Screwed, you have been. WHoever did your PIR cannot have tested the circuit.

Somewhere there is a reg that says you are not allowed to run a separate earth to make this good. I believe that the earth (cpc) has to be a part of the cable feeding the device.
Any IEE anoraks remember the reg number?. its raining too hard and me books in the van...

 

[plugwash]

iirc it doesn't actually have to be part of the same cable as the live conductors but it does have to run in close proximity to them (which usually means its as much work to add it as it is to rewire the circuit).

 

[BDacre]

BDacre, the only correct option is to have the lights rewired. At the very least get some second opinions from local registered electricians; there may be an interim solution, but you do need proper on-the-spot advice. Carry on cooking in the dark in the meantime.

Dingbat, thanks for the advice, sounds like an expensive job. How much does rewiring cost (any rough estimates?) and would it have to be the whole house? 3 bed house, so I'm guessing this isn't cheap. Do they have to dig wires out of walls etc? When we bought the house the surveyor did say it's due for rewiring.

B*gg*r!

 

[securespark]

Somewhere there is a reg that says you are not allowed to run a separate earth to make this good. I believe that the earth (cpc) has to be a part of the cable feeding the device.
Any IEE anoraks remember the reg number?. its raining too hard and me books in the van...

No, there is no reg. Wait for it to stop raining and check!

The IEE say that you can run a seperate cpc in close proximity to the twin cable. See earthing snags & solutions.

 

[dingbat]

When we bought the house the surveyor did say it's due for rewiring.

Given that a surveyor has said this, did you not think his advice worth taking?

It is almost always a false economy not to rewire before undertaking any kind of refurbishment. Prior to decorating (and ideally, prior to moving in!) a rewire is the cheapest of all the major jobs you may have to carry out. It needs doing first, but once done it will probably outlast every other job you can think of.

Cost? Depends, as always, but an empty three-bed house can be rewired in three days, whilst an occupied one may take four-five days and twice the price. You need to get opinions and quotes from local electricians.

 

[RF Lighting]

an empty three-bed house can be rewired in three days, whilst an occupied one may take four-five days.

Blimey. How fast do you work?

Last occupied 3 bed house I did took 2 weeks for 2 men

Empty usually takes a week.

 

[BDacre]

Given that a surveyor has said this, did you not think his advice worth taking?

It is almost always a false economy not to rewire before undertaking any kind of refurbishment. Prior to decorating (and ideally, prior to moving in!) a rewire is the cheapest of all the major jobs you may have to carry out. It needs doing first, but once done it will probably outlast every other job you can think of.

Believe me it's on the to-do list, but as first-time buyers the pennies will only stretch so far and just buying the house and having a small damp problem cleared out all the savings we had. Having a rewiring before moving in would have been great but I don't think we could have afforded a hotel for a week plus storage of our stuff prior to moving, in as the purchase took a long time due to the vendor faffing about and our rental term ran out. At least we haven't decorated yet!

Thanks so much everyone for all the advice. Electrician came round today and said wiring in the rest of the house is fine for now, kitchen extension needs redoing but for now a double-insulated light will give us light in there whilst we save up to have the whole house rewired next year. Problem temporarily solved!

Thanks again for all the advice.