Roof without Roof Ties

[ChrisDYI]

Hi,

A friend of mine has had an extension built. It is a wooden dormer type extension and he called me round to take a look at what has been done before he pays the final bill. I am not a professional builder but know a fair bit of DIY and have built extensions myself on my own houses. One thing that really concerned me was the roof of the extension does not have Roof Ties and basically the Rafters are just nailed into the Stud Work without any cross supports or Roof Ties - a bit like a vaulted roof. Can anyone confirm that all roofs should have rafter ties to stop the roof putting outward pressure on the walls before I tell him to bring this up as an issue?

 

[conny]

I'm not a roofer/builder but I'm having my loft converted at the moment. About 12" down from the top of the roof , there are short crossmembers, about 15"-18", (maybe slightly longer, which tie in the rafters from both sides. At floor level there are joists tying them together where they meet tying them together at the lowest point. These lower ones are also the supports for the ground floor ceilings, (it's a bungalow by the way). They also have diagonal ties running from the bottom corners across the rafters to the central point on each side to prevent sideways movement.
They also have short supports, (about 3'-6"), about 4' in from the eaves, attached to every rafter and floor joist.
Hope this helps.

 

[ChrisDYI]

I'm not a roofer/builder but I'm having my loft converted at the moment. About 12" down from the top of the roof , there are short crossmembers, about 15"-18", (maybe slightly longer, which tie in the rafters from both sides. At floor level there are joists tying them together where they meet tying them together at the lowest point. These lower ones are also the supports for the ground floor ceilings, (it's a bungalow by the way). They also have diagonal ties running from the bottom corners across the rafters to the central point on each side to prevent sideways movement.
They also have short supports, (about 3'-6"), about 4' in from the eaves, attached to every rafter and floor joist.
Hope this helps.

Thanks for the advice. I am pretty sure this is not right, there must be a considerable outward force on the walls since there is no cross members. I am going to tell him not to pay until it is put right and if the guy refuses not to pay.

 

[drpepe]

What does ‘put right’ mean?

I would ask who designed it and whether building regs have approved drawings and been on site.

 

[ChrisDYI]

What does ‘put right’ mean?

I would ask who designed it and whether building regs have approved drawings and been on site.

I checked through the plans which were done by a friend of the builder and what has been done is not in accordance with the plans. Architect tried to bs me when I put him on the spot when asked if what his friend had done was not what his design drawing specified. Bunch of cowboys basically, my friend is not paying the final bill and he is going to get the opinion of an independent structural engineer. If it can be fixed by putting additional cross members across the rafters I have offered to do it for him to stop lateral force on the stud walls - should not take more than a couple of hours and he will save a couple of grand by not paying the final bill. If not the roof will have to be redone - he is considering legal action against the builder but it is probably a waste of time since he is working through a ltd company with about 100 quid in the bank. It is terrifying how many cowboys operate in the construction industry, only solution is to do it yourself or watch who ever you employ like a hawk.

 

[mrrusty]

Who has design responsibility? who employed the architect? Is the builder working for the customer on a "design and build" contract, or is the builder building to the clients design? No point going after the builder if the builder doesn't have design responsibility, as they won't if the client employs the architect, unless the builder is negligent and doesn't build to the clients drawings.

Not all roofs require ties - it might have a structural ridge beam.

 

[ChrisDYI]

Who has design responsibility? who employed the architect? Is the builder working for the customer on a "design and build" contract, or is the builder building to the clients design? No point going after the builder if the builder doesn't have design responsibility, as they won't if the client employs the architect, unless the builder is negligent and doesn't build to the clients drawings.

Not all roofs require ties - it might have a structural ridge beam.

It does not have a ridge beam. This is a vaulted roof supported by the walls - and I am basically convinced it is not sound structurally, it must be putting considerable outward force on the walls - one of which is a stud wall. The builder was paid for the job and his architect friend did the design. Anyhow he is not getting the final cheque unless the structural engineer who is coming in next week to look at it says it is fine, which he will not since he has already told me it is not right from the photographs I sent him. What I am hoping is it can be fixed by putting in 2x4s and cross members. I have now spoken to the builder also who got pretty aggressive with me on the phone, since he probably knows I am going to stop him getting paid if this turns out to be the mess I know it is. I have told my friend who is a female living on her own that if he comes round and starts to get aggressive with her to call me and I will go over there and speak to him in person.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Are there no engineers drawings? Are Building Control involved?

 

[ChrisDYI]

Are there no engineers drawings? Are Building Control involved?

The Engineer drawings come from the Architect. I am not sure if the building inspector has viewed the roof yet or not - which is not in accordance with the initial design that was submitted, I am going to find this out.

 

[Notch7]

Architect tried to bs me when I put him on the spot when asked if what his friend had done was not what his design drawing specified

You should ask the architect to provide revised b/regs compliant drawings that reflect the “as built” situation.

If what is built is not compliant, he won’t be able to do it - he wouldnt put his Professional indemnity insurance at risk

 

[mrrusty]

The builder was paid for the job and his architect friend did the design

Who paid the architect? Sorry to be pedantic, but it makes a difference. If the client directly employed and paid the architect and the initial drawings were correct, then you pursue the builder for not building according to drawings. If the builder employed the architect, then you go after the builder for building something that is not fit for purpose - If the client doesn't have a contract with the architect then you can't chase the architect directly.

Assuming your own SE confirms that the roof is unfit, you do need clarity on the contractual liabilities and where they lay, because going after the "wrong" person for the "wrong" reason is likely to not be successful.

If the client wanted a vaulted roof are additional cross braces going to be acceptable?

 

[ChrisDYI]

Who paid the architect? Sorry to be pedantic, but it makes a difference. If the client directly employed and paid the architect and the initial drawings were correct, then you pursue the builder for not building according to drawings. If the builder employed the architect, then you go after the builder for building something that is not fit for purpose - If the client doesn't have a contract with the architect then you can't chase the architect directly.

Assuming your own SE confirms that the roof is unfit, you do need clarity on the contractual liabilities and where they lay, because going after the "wrong" person for the "wrong" reason is likely to not be successful.

If the client wanted a vaulted roof are additional cross braces going to be acceptable?

The builder hired the architect. My friend did not want a vaulted roof but that is what the builder had constructed in the loft space. Basically the Structural Engineer has suggest that putting cross braces and collar ties with C24 2x4 will be sufficient to make the loft structurally sound. I am going to put these supports in at the weekend then contact planning and tell them about the situation. As for contractual liabilities she is not paying the final bill, getting legal with this guy is a waste of time he is working through a ltd company with a negative net worth. Only people who win in court when taking legal action against small builders are lawyers in my experience. If he wants to take legal action for non payment of the bill then she has all the emails where he is telling her the roof is fine so he will probably get thrown out of court and will end up in the local paper for being a cowboy builder. I have also told her to tell him if he turns up at her house again getting aggressive she will have him charged with harassment and apply for a restraining order. This guy is a total piece of work.

 

[mrrusty]

That sounds like a good plan to me. You might want to document the time and materials you are going to use for the additional structures. Also factor in the time that is going to be needed and any additional costs to achieve certification by building control. (It's not planning department of course - I presume building control have either had a BC application with drawings or is the builder working on a building notice?).

Hopefully the cost calculation for the additional work will equal the payment withheld and ultimately justify not paying. However, be aware that legally you can't just "withhold payment". The contractor should be given the opportunity to complete the job to a satisfactory standard - which would be payment subject to final BC sign-off. Only if he refuses to do that can payment then be withheld as a breach of contract. Should the builder decide to legally chase the final payment, you need all your ducks lined up.

Remember, it is the householders responsibility to build to regs and get BC sign-off, not the builders or architects UNLESS this obligation is specifically contracted under the Ts & Cs of any contract.

The builder, irrespective of any Ts & Cs has an obligation to build with "reasonable skill and care" which means to an acceptable standard expected of a professional. Your challenge and basis for a breach of contract, is that they have so far failed to do that. The evidence at the moment is that 1) your SE says (hopefully documented) the work is substandard and 2) you do not yet have building control sign off.

 

[conny]

I wouldn't make any changes to the roof until your SE has been to see it first. Otherwise, your work could actually make it structurally safe ad there will be no case of bad workmanship. Hang on until your SE has made a report unless it is structurally unsafe as to be an immediate danger to your friend or member of the public. If it is, take many pictures from far and close up, which should be date stamped, before you secure anything. If possible, try to get your friend taking pictures of you actually doing the work as further proof it was you.

 

[ChrisDYI]

I wouldn't make any changes to the roof until your SE has been to see it first. Otherwise, your work could actually make it structurally safe ad there will be no case of bad workmanship. Hang on until your SE has made a report unless it is structurally unsafe as to be an immediate danger to your friend or member of the public. If it is, take many pictures from far and close up, which should be date stamped, before you secure anything. If possible, try to get your friend taking pictures of you actually doing the work as further proof it was you.

He looked at it this morning and has told me it is not structurally sound and is putting considerable outward force on the stud wall of the dormer. He has agreed with me that putting cross members and collar braces to the roof will make it safe and is preparing a report. This guy is not getting paid, and if he wants to play silly b*gg*rs with the courts after he told me there is nothing wrong with the roof and his architect friend also gave me a pile of bs about how what has been done is ok because of the height of the roof then they are welcome to go for it. Cowboy builders like this make me sick and should sell their tools and take up a career that does not involve a basic common sense grasp of geometry like rubbish collection.