Sangamo timer

[Steve]

Hope someone can help. I have moved to another shop now. Bigger, it has its own electrical room. Theres 2 sangamo timers for the outside lights. One is for the fluorescent tubes above the shop signs. When i push the button on the timer, i can see the contacts move and a spark is created, and the lights flick on and off. However, when I rotate the timer, on the day side, the lights do not switch off. On the night side, they do. So they are on all day. A bit of a waste. The timer is the variety with the days on the dial (day omit device if im not mistaken). Any ideas? Obviously we want them off between 9am and 4pm! I have read the instructions on the TLC website, but they are as clear as mud and dont mention this problem!

Plenty of other faults here too: This shop was built 3 years ago, a totally new building. There are no fish keys for the EM lights, none of the EM lights have an LED showing on them to say they are charging - I suspect they are all set to test. (One of the ladies was telling me, whenever theres a powercut, they dont come on.) Electricians never said anything to anyone about any keys or testing the EM lights. Theres a missing blank in the main DB. Theres a UPS missing - the POS sockets are labelled "UPS1" and "UPS 2" but i suspect one set is just plugged into the mains because there's only one UPS. Oh, and theres no covers for these Sangamo timers. One last thing, the cables for the fluorescent lights out front are hanging over the signs. What have I let myself in for?? On the plus side, all the sockets and FCUs are labelled with the MCB number they originate from.
__________________________
lynda, moderator

edited text size for clarity

 

[plugwash]

i strongly suspect that the timer is simply faulty.

fish keys are easy enough to get hold of.

you just have to hope that the problems are small (e.g. caused by poor maintiance) and not major deep problems caused by a cowboy initial install.

what exactly is your relation with this shop, owner? staff member? electrician called in? concerned customer?

 

[Spark123]

Them old sangamo things lol. There should be a pin protruding from the underside of the off arm which catches the off lever as it passes. When the clock gets to the off time the the pin releases the lever and it flicks back operating the contact off. Is the pin not pushing the lever up far enough or something? What happens if you try it with a small screw driver? iirc when you push the off lever up far enough you should hear a small click as it engages the mechanism. The day wheel stops the timer from switching on if the arrow is pointing the wrong way, it does not stop it from switching off. The day wheel is controlled by the first of the on pins.
As for the other problems, especially the em lights you'd be better having a sparks look at them directly? Are they self contained units or part of a distributed system?

 

[breezer]

sangamo timers are marvelous

several things to check

is there an off arm?

is the off arm set before the on arm?

also the day of the week "switch" is it set to the right day?
are its arrows pointing in wards or outwards?

the idea of the day of the week "switch" is to mechaniacly stop the arms from operating the switch contacts, so if the arrows are in* the timer will never switch off

* I cant remember if its in or out, but which ever way they are turn the the other way

I am also assuming this day of the week thing is a small little inset wheel

 

[Spark123]

I know the arrows on the day wheel stop the timer switching on, but I don't think they stop them switching off i.e. if the override button is pressed.

 

[breezer]

i think they do because you may not want the timer to operate on that day, but you may be right

 

[Spark123]

I'll have a play later, I think I know where there is one of these installed on an old boiler.

 

[Steve]

what exactly is your relation with this shop, owner? staff member? electrician called in? concerned customer?

Duty manager. I'm trying to solve problems without call-outs! I have ordered a bunch of fish keys from our store support service. The EM lights are all self contained, but as I said, none are charging (no LEDs lit). I wouldnt mind, but all of the EM lights appear to have their own switch! So how they all got to be switched off is beyond me. I jimmied one of the switches to the test position earlier using a paperclip (in one of the back rooms - this one was actually charging!), but it wouldn't go back .

The EM switches are not MK grid - they are the type with square modules, and the EM switches are marked
[code:1] TEST
EM LTG
CHARGE[/code:1]
With the switch in the middle. Not sure what brand. Will the standard MK keys fit these? The slot looks a little longer.

Lynda, I changed the font sizes because I wanted the main response to be for the Sangamo issue.

I will have another look at the timer tomorrow and see if the pins are arranged the right order etc (though if they were in the wrong order on the day side, the lights would go off at 4pm and stay off until 7am!) I will also check the pins under the on and off tabs, make sure they are making contact. What if they aren't? Is the timer goosed? Is there no way to tighten it up? (The nut in the middle is tight - i checked that!)

(By the way, dont worry, im not going to start opening up DBs and messing with the wiring! I know there be 400V lurking in parts of this installation, and stupid currents (there's a CT meter), so I wont be doing anything beyond adjusting timers!)

Out of interest, I went to get a safe key cut today at Asda, and asked the bloke there if he sold fish keys, I explained what they were, and he said he'd never heard of them. He had hundreds of varieties of keys hung on the walls there. But no fish keys

The general installation is very high standard, just these few things I picked up on.

 

[plugwash]

fish keys aren't used at home generally and any workplace that uses them is likely to have an internal procedure for requesting them so i'd imagine there is very little demand for them on the customer market.

 

[JohnD]

I've still got one or two of those old sangamo's in the loft!

IIRC, the "On" and the "Off" levers both have a projecting bar, which catches on a cam as it goes by. If you loosen the screw in the middle (it should have a knurled pastic grip) you can move the arms about freely on the rotatling clock spindle. It is possible for an "on" and an "off" arm to be positioned on top of each other (though you can only see the one in front) and in that case they don't work right. They can have more than one "on" and more than on "off" arm. They don't have to have the same number of each.

Some have a rotating plastic knob under the time wheel for manual override on/off.

If you can put up a pic I'll look at mine and see if I have the same model, maybe I can puzzle it out.

p.s. you have to have the "on" and the "off" arms a certain distance apart - minimum time gap - depends if its a 24 hour or a 7-day - otherwise the second one tries to operate before the first one has "let go" on the switching cam

Congrats on the new job, BTW

 

[RF Lighting]

The EM switches are not MK grid - they are the type with square modules, and the EM switches are marked
[code:1] TEST
EM LTG
CHARGE[/code:1]
With the switch in the middle. Not sure what brand. Will the standard MK keys fit these? The slot looks a little longer.

Does it look like the one at the top of this picture?

If so then it is the MEM grid range, and cannot be operated with MK keys.

The MEM keys are alot thinner and have a different end on them.

We tend to use a paperclip too

 

[Steve]

Does it look like the one at the top of this picture?

If so then it is the MEM grid range, and cannot be operated with MK keys.

The MEM keys are alot thinner and have a different end on them.

We tend to use a paperclip too

Yes! Thats them!!! Last time I had to order fish keys, it was for MK. I had enough trouble trying to explain what it was I wanted to the woman at support! HOW on earth am i going to explain that I need an MEM key?

And the paperclip wouldn't work for me - too thick and not rigid enough - I ended up using the back of a stanley knife blade, but as I said, it wouldn't go back to charge.

 

[JohnD]

They're ever so cheap. maybe if you ring MEM customer support they'll send you one free? Try 08700 545 333

It appears to be the "Spectra" range. Key to fit Part no. F8026EL

Key F8099 I think.

 

[Lectrician]

Every wholesaler will have the keys - as long as they stock that make.

They will usually happily give you one or two. They are meant to supply one with every switch sold, but when us sparks order a dozen, they supply just a couple unless you ask for more, so they have plenty knocking around

 

[Spark123]

Just had a play with one of those timers (after all that I had one in the garage ), on the one I have the day wheel only inhibits the timer on function although on some models it may differ. The over-ride is a small red button on the top left hand side. The plastic knob which you use to loosen the setting arms is reverse thread but is labelled up which way to loosen. The pins on the arms are also of different lengths hence they need to be in the correct order;

• on with the shortest pin at the bottom,
• off with the shortest pin,
• washer,
• on with the same length pin as the above off,
• off with the longest pin,
• washer,