If it looks that way to you then your seeing is faulty.
How about the fact that they do?
Shed straight concentric supply query
- Thread starter Furball
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Yes.
What I agree with is that these terms are not properly defined or consistently used in BS 7671.
What I agree with is the idea that they might be defined in other standards.
What I agree with is that no matter what usage you point to in BS 7671, BS 8436 clearly does not define the screen in those cables as the sheath, and clearly does not define the sheath as that screen, or covering over the cores.
What I agree with is that there is nowhere near enough clarity for you and John to be justified in your conclusion about what is suitable for direct burying.
What I agree with is that you are still trying to argue yourself out of accepting that there is nowhere near enough clarity.
And as we can see, nowhere does BS 8436 say that it has one of those.
I have already referred to sloppy language in the Regulations, and how unhelpful it is, so I don't think there is any point in trying to analyse it. These terms are not properly defined or consistently used in BS 7671, so you're not going to be able to use them to arrive at any firm conclusions.
That question makes no sense - armour and sheath are two different things, and a cable does not have to have both.
522.8.10 ... a cable buried in the ground shall incorporate an earthed armour or ...
In the absence of any contradictory definition (see the dictionary definitions I quoted earlier in the thread), this is therefore "a" sheath - being a covering on a cable. It's primary function may well be for EMC screening, but unless you can find a definition of sheath that excludes an "aluminium tube enclosing the cores" then that cable would appear to meet the requirements in BS7671 IF the CSA of the tube is sufficient to be used as a CPC for the circuit.
As said, there may be other reasons not to bury it, though having XLPE insulation suggests that the non-waterproof nature of PVC isn't one of them, but the lack of a metallic sheath isn't one of them.
I trust you aren't arguing that a cable can only have a single "sheath" ?
Try looking in a Dictionary rather than a Thesaurus
VERB 1 Give the impression of being something or having a particular quality.
And Collins seem to agree as well - to appear to the mind ..., to give the impression ...
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I trust you aren't arguing that a cable for which the standard does not say it has a metal sheath but does say it has a plastic sheath can be considered to officially have a metal sheath?
No, I'm arguing that a cable that has something which meets the dictionary definition of "a sheath", and where that "sheath" is metallic, has something which is a "metallic sheath" regardless of what the manufacturer or standards call it.
So are you arguing that aluminium is not metallic ?
Are you arguing that a "tube" enclosing the cores does not meet the definition of "sheath" ?
Because unless you argue that one of those is incorrect, then it is rather hard to see how you can argue that in the case in question, the cable does not have "a" metallic sheath. It also has an XLPE sheath over the top of that, but that doesn't alter the nature of the sheath inside it.
Unless you have found some official definition of sheath that differs from what everyone (except, it would seem*, you) accepts as being a "sheath". If you have, then post a link and we can all stand corrected - but until you find and post such a definition, then we have to assume that you are being belligerent in your usual manner of having your own definitions and trying to claim that the rest of the world is wrong.
* Yes, using the dictionary definitions I recently posted showing it's use as "would appear"
So are you arguing that aluminium is not metallic ?
Are you arguing that a "tube" enclosing the cores does not meet the definition of "sheath" ?
Because unless you argue that one of those is incorrect, then it is rather hard to see how you can argue that in the case in question, the cable does not have "a" metallic sheath. It also has an XLPE sheath over the top of that, but that doesn't alter the nature of the sheath inside it.
Unless you have found some official definition of sheath that differs from what everyone (except, it would seem*, you) accepts as being a "sheath". If you have, then post a link and we can all stand corrected - but until you find and post such a definition, then we have to assume that you are being belligerent in your usual manner of having your own definitions and trying to claim that the rest of the world is wrong.
* Yes, using the dictionary definitions I recently posted showing it's use as "would appear"
Try explaining why a Thesaurus must be wrong, or ignored.Try looking in a Dictionary rather than a Thesaurus
You may not take a term defined by a standard, give it a different meaning, and then claim that the standard says that the {whatever} has that thing.
I'm arguing that the definition of the construction of a cable to BS 8436 does not give it a metal sheath.
I can point out that in the definition of how a cable to BS 8436 shall be constructed, it is not given a metal sheath.
There is no sheath inside it.
If there is, please show us in BS 8436 where that sheath is defined. For the avoidance of any doubt, the standard must refer to that component as a sheath, for if it does not then it clearly is not a sheath as far as the standard is concerned.
I'll add you to the list of people whose only concern seems to be to argue themselves out of accepting that there is clearly insufficient clarity about the term for any claim that there is to be valid.Unless you have found some official definition of sheath that differs from what everyone (except, it would seem*, you) accepts as being a "sheath". If you have, then post a link and we can all stand corrected - but until you find and post such a definition, then we have to assume that you are being belligerent in your usual manner of having your own definitions and trying to claim that the rest of the world is wrong.
* Yes, using the dictionary definitions I recently posted showing it's use as "would appear"
You say I have my own definitions, but you are demonstrably using a definition which contradicts what the BS for that type of cable says.
Therefore all we need to consider is covering and sheath.
They might be. Are they?
Does it have to define covering for us to know that the screen covers and as such may even be a sheath.
We have not conclude that. We are discussing the possibility with you.
Surely a lack of clarity increases the possibility.
Can we not therefore rely on standard English definitions.
It depends who you ask:
It does not, but to be buried in the ground a cable may just have a metal sheath.
Accepted. Sorry, I had forgotten that in all the discussion.[/QUOTE]
Indeed.Try looking in a Dictionary rather than a Thesaurus
Furthermore, I don't really care what definitions can be found in dictionaries or any thesaurus. When I add the word "seem" or "seemingly" into a sentence (let alone three times into the same sentence), I do so deliberately in order to indicate a lack of certainty. Virtually everyone will understand that such is my meaning/intention, and most of them will use the words in the same way for the same purpose themselves. If a dictionary or thesaurus indicates otherwise, I would say that it is the dictionary/thesaurus which is 'wrong' in terms of how our language is used.
Consider "The answer to the question seems to be .....". Would anyone (other than BAS) take that to mean the same as "The answer to the question certainly is ...."?
Kind Regards, John
How about "522.8.10 only seems to indicate that that would be OK, there is no certainty that it actually is"?
No it doesn't. It specifically states what is required.
You seem to be scraping the barrel.
You seem to be scraping the barrel.
Ah - the Humpty Dumpty approach. Jolly good.
I shall remember that last part, the next time you tell me that no matter what I think about the correct definition of a word (e.g. electrocution), dictionaries reflect reality, they do not prescribe.
But given your first statement, shall we take it that you don't care that the Collins English Dictionary 21st Century Edition describes seeming/seemingly as
apparent but not actual or genuine, outward or false appearance
?
You seem to be wanting it both ways.
Either it specifically states what is required, or it only seems to.
So when you wrote this:
You were using "seems" in the way the thesaurus entry I posted earlier uses it?
John is adamant that he uses it to indicate that he is uncertain:
He meant that there is uncertainty over whether 522.8.10 indicates very clearly that any cable with an earthed metal sheath may be directly buried.
You didn't actually mean it only has the appearance of being all right but you are uncertain?
You were using "seems" in the way the thesaurus entry I posted earlier uses it?
Good job I got involved - you and John have been discussing this but you mean different things by 'seem/seemingly/etc'
John is adamant that he uses it to indicate that he is uncertain:
He meant that there is uncertainty over whether 522.8.10 indicates very clearly that any cable with an earthed metal sheath may be directly buried.
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