Skills

[scousespark]

John

When I asked where this question is aimed, it was a leading question. Most people only come into contact with an electrician, when they have work on their home. This would also apply to other trades.

I assume the poster is referring to the Domestic Installer scheme, which has a reduced level of training. The EAL course came into being to fill a niche in the training market. The scheme providers decided that the full C&G training covered more than necesaary for a DI.

I don't know how much exposure you or bas have had to the training courses offered by either the C&G or the EAL. As you both do you own elecrtrical work, I don't know how much contact you have with electricians. It would be interesting to know.

I referred to Part P, in relation to it's impact on electicians working in the domestic sector. As you said, it doesn't stop you or anybody working in a house (even when being paid). There is a responsibility when it comes to notifiable jobs. This impacted on the 'man-in-van' handyman who did electrical work prior to 2005, with NO requirement to have any training/qualifications.

 

[ericmark]

Of course to learn everything about a complete trade will likely take a live time but I have meet many of a stove welder who has learnt their skill very quickly in a matter of weeks. They only do one type of welding yet are very high paid.

With most trades there are people who specialise in one small part of the trade either because it requires extra skill or knowledge or with the firm they are with it's all that is required.

This was the case with Sizewell power station an electrical firm was employed to pull in cables and terminate but they did no testing. The firm I worked for GEC Large Steam Turbines would test all the cables Baileys only installed them.

Baileys did have apprentices and they could end up spending all of their time doing a very restricted amount of work it was only the college educations which prepared them for other sites. Normally jobs did not last that long and before 4 years had elapsed they would have worked on many sites and each would be different.

I really did feel sorry for them. Once it reached the interesting bit I took over. They were little more than electricians mates on that job.

College has also surprised me. I was invited to sit in on a days lessons with the idea of getting some written qualifications I was missing. Simple question what conductors do we use. Copper was the only one named. So I started naming some Aluminium, Silver, Gold etc and could not believe it when the other students said I was wrong. I seems so basic but it would seem the course had expected students to already know this so had not explained it.

But there are the chancers. I remember talking to a mechanic for the council who had been asked at the interview "Have you served a recognised apprenticeship" to which he had answered truthfully yes. But failed to say this was as a dental mechanic. By time I knew him he was a very good mechanic and replaced his brother as workshop foremen.

My father returned from the war and went into local steel works and insisted they sack the unskilled worker and employ him instead and they were forced to do just that. That was the union closed shop rules. The guy sacked had been doing that job for 4 years. To me that did not seem fair. At that time the union was all powerful and if a tradesman brought the trade into disrepute the union could withdraw his union card and the firm had to sack them.

I really don't want to see that return. Today only the gas trade seems to have a closed shop. Either your a member of Gas-Safe or you can't work which I thought was illegal?

 

[SimonH2]

Your post is about experience, not skills.

Hmm, that's a tricky one - the two are heavily intertwined since skills usually come from experience.

I really don't want to see that return. Today only the gas trade seems to have a closed shop. Either your a member of Gas-Safe or you can't work which I thought was illegal?

Like many things, it's illegal unless you can persuade enough of a group of 650 temps sat in a big room in London to make it legal That usually follows from having a few bad cases - in the gas world there's no shortage of incidents, the first one that came to mind was Ronan Point, and sure enough it features in the Wikipedia page on CORGI. I see that Gas-Safe is run under contract from the HSE.

There is of course a parallel in other aspects of life. You can't work as a driver without a licence - and that means getting one from a monopoly (DVLA).


In a parallel with development of gas safety rules, electrical safety took a step "forwards" when a dangerous installation personally affected an MP - and then we got the usual knee-jerk, must do something, over-reaction that led to the 2005 Building Regs. We know how well that worked out

 

[JohnW2]

John ... I assume the poster is referring to the Domestic Installer scheme, which has a reduced level of training. The EAL course came into being to fill a niche in the training market. The scheme providers decided that the full C&G training covered more than necesaary for a DI.

You may be right but, as I said, my assumption had been that the OP was referring to those who undertook domestic electrical work in gneral, whether or not they were a member of the DI (or any other) scheme.

I don't know how much exposure you or bas have had to the training courses offered by either the C&G or the EAL. As you both do you own elecrtrical work, I don't know how much contact you have with electricians. It would be interesting to know.

I have had no exposure to any such courses, but I seem to recall that BAS may have had. I've had a fair bit of contact with electricians.

I referred to Part P, in relation to it's impact on electicians working in the domestic sector. As you said, it doesn't stop you or anybody working in a house (even when being paid). There is a responsibility when it comes to notifiable jobs. This impacted on the 'man-in-van' handyman who did electrical work prior to 2005, with NO requirement to have any training/qualifications.

I can't disagree with any of that - although, as I said, even post-2005 there is still "NO requirement for any training/qualification" - the only requirement is that Part P, and responsibilities for notification, are complied with. Whether an 'electrician' who was not a member of a self-cert scheme (but who wanted to 'keep things legal') would often be engaged to undertake notifiable work is perhaps a different question. However, I suppose that for large projects (like 'full re-wires') the LABC fee would not have a major impact on the total cost of the job, so someone prepared to slightly reduce their profit might be able to remain competitive with a self-certifying electrician.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

... electrical safety took a step "forwards" when a dangerous installation personally affected an MP - and then we got the usual knee-jerk, must do something, over-reaction that led to the 2005 Building Regs.

... except that, as is often pointed out, Part P was drafted (and was almost certainly 'unstoppable') long before that unfortunate incident happened.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Today only the gas trade seems to have a closed shop. Either your a member of Gas-Safe or you can't work which I thought was illegal?

Things like being a member of GasSafe is about having required qualifications and being on a required register (or 'licensed' or whatever) - not about a union 'closed shop'. The same applies in a vast number of walks of life.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

as is often pointed out, Part P was drafted (and was almost certainly 'unstoppable') long before that unfortunate incident happened.

Certainly was unstoppable, as it had already started (as in the Statutory instrument published, commencement date fixed, etc etc)

 

[RF Lighting]

I did a formal apprenticeship years ago, and since then have specialised into a slightly obscure section of the industry. It provides me with maybe half of my work, with the test made up of general contracting jobs.

Specialist work is a double edged sword. There is a limited number of electricians who can do the work so you can command better money, but not many people in the local area require the specialism, so generally the work requires a lot of travelling and living out of hotels which the novelty wears off very quickly.

 

[scousespark]

John ... I assume the poster is referring to the Domestic Installer scheme, which has a reduced level of training. The EAL course came into being to fill a niche in the training market. The scheme providers decided that the full C&G training covered more than necesaary for a DI.

You may be right but, as I said, my assumption had been that the OP was referring to those who undertook domestic electrical work in gneral, whether or not they were a member of the DI (or any other) scheme.

I don't know how much exposure you or bas have had to the training courses offered by either the C&G or the EAL. As you both do you own elecrtrical work, I don't know how much contact you have with electricians. It would be interesting to know.

I have had no exposure to any such courses, but I seem to recall that BAS may have had. I've had a fair bit of contact with electricians.



Kind Regards, John

In your 20,000+ posts you have often referred to your contact with electricians. I'd be interested to know how this comes about. I work mainly in commercial, but don't do much when people are in the office.

I also work in the domestic sector, but don't tend to keep working for one customer.

 

[scousespark]

Your post is about experience, not skills.

Hmm, that's a tricky one - the two are heavily intertwined since skills usually come from experience.

That is the point I was making. A and B are taken on as apprentices and qualify at the same time. Both move in to new jobs. A goes to work for a housebuilder and B goes into a factory. After 10 years, they will have the same underpinning knowledge, but their skill sets will be vastly different. They could both switch jobs, but would take time getting up to speed with the job.

As for one body regulating the trade, I would personally welcome that. The LABC inspectors are trained to deal with jobs affecting a building's structure. In the main, electrical work doesn't do that. I have never met an inspector who knows the first thing about electrical installation.

 

[bernardgreen]

I have never met an inspector who knows the first thing about electrical installation.

Two have admitted to me that the two LABC they work for do not have any staff competent to inspect electrical installations.

 

[JohnW2]

... you have often referred to your contact with electricians.

It surprises me that you say that - I don't really have much reason to say anything like that unless someone, like you, raises the issue.

I'd be interested to know how this comes about. I work mainly in commercial, but don't do much when people are in the office. I also work in the domestic sector, but don't tend to keep working for one customer.

I'm really not sure what it has got to do with anything, but it 'comes about' in a couple of ways. Firstly, I have a couple of electricians in my family (one primarily domestic and the other primarily commercial) and I have fairly frequent 'social' contact with them and a number of their electrician colleagues and friends.

However, much more relevant is that I have another family member who is heavily into 'property development' (mainly domestic, but sometimes commercial). At any point in time, she will usually have at least two or three (often more) properties undergoing 'refurbishment', often involving extensive electrical work. I help her to 'keep an eye on' things being done in the properties, so it is an unusual week in which I am not exposed to at least one electrician (or group of electricians) - and, given my obvious interest in matters electrical, it will not surprise you to hear that I take a keen interest in seeing what they are doing, and discussing with them what they are doing (and, inevitably, sometimes 'questioning' what they are doing )! That's been going on for a good few years, so I think it's probably reasonable to say that I have had a fair bit of 'contact' with electricians.

However, as I said, I'm not sure what this got to do with anything!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

... you have often referred to your contact with electricians.

It surprises me that you say that - I don't really have much reason to say anything like that unless someone, like you, raises the issue.

Can I have some contact?

 

[SimonH2]

Can I have some contact?

You haven't got the hang of this "not making inappropriate comments" thing have you ?

 

[seasickstevie]

Be interesting to delv into BAS's collection of pics ... not wishing to suggest any impropriety of course