Smart Gas Meters

[bernardgreen]

Where does Ofgem say that installers set the meters to cu ft or cu mtr ?

It points out human errors in the system were still there after many similar new meter bill errors in past years as far back as 2009 ( probably not smart meters ) . I admit to being not fully informed about the latest domestic "smart" meters but early domestic smart neters could be set to register either metric or imperial volumes (probably at factory or metering depot ). The flow sensor generated pulses proportial to flow rate. The pulse rate from the sensors then had to be processed to provide the flow volume as either cubic metres, cublic feet or any other unit of volumetric measure.

and probably the first useful contribution that I have seen from him

perhaps you should read more with an open mind

 

[FiremanT]

OP: do you have a in home screen showing usage in real time?

 

[gas112]

meters are not in cubic feet now and cannot be altered by the engineer installing them or anyone else . Its a backroom fault in working it out bills properly.
Also there has been quite a large number of meters registering without actually passing gas

 

[John D v2.0]

You know perfect;y well what I meant. They will not send someone out to check the meter in the sense you meant. In fact, the supplier will not go to the meter to have it tested. That will be contracted to Cadent, who replace the meter, the "suspect" one being packed and transported in a controlled fashion to the test house. I(t is obviously important that no damage is done to the meter in transit, so is packaged in a specific manner, and sent via carrier)

Actually I didn't know what you meant, but thanks for clarifying. And it turns out you meant exactly the same as me in the end.

The point to the op isn't some detailed story about their internal organisation, the point is simply to tell the supplier it's wrong and needs testing, they can follow whatever their internal procedure whether it's sending a contractor or sending Prince Philip himself, but either way they need to confirm for themselves the meter is wrong.
And the reassurance is the op won't get into any issue as if the supplier are foolish enough to try to get a court order he has ample evidence they have screwed up.

 

[John D v2.0]

perhaps you should read more with an open mind

Reminds me of that story where someone's wife says "you're drunk" then the husband, charming as ever, says "yes, but you're ugly, and I'll be sober in the morning".
Seems to apply here - I'm lacking in knowledge, yes, but I'll have learnt more by tomorrow. Anyone lacking in attitude can decide for themselves what tomorrow will be like.
And that's not directed at anyone in particular, it just is useful to bear in mind in life.

 

[FiremanT]

Actually I didn't know what you meant, but thanks for clarifying. And it turns out you meant exactly the same as me in the end.

The point to the op isn't some detailed story about their internal organisation, the point is simply to tell the supplier it's wrong and needs testing, they can follow whatever their internal procedure whether it's sending a contractor or sending Prince Philip himself, but either way they need to confirm for themselves the meter is wrong.
And the reassurance is the op won't get into any issue as if the supplier are foolish enough to try to get a court order he has ample evidence they have screwed up.

Fair enough, but I think the OP has already told the supplier there is a problem. And the point is actually that they will NOT send out a random guy to sort it.
I have a lot of sympathy for the OP. Big firms are a nightmare,once the wheel has fallen off. They seem incapable of taking a logical view of it all. I suspect that the problem is that the OP has been over complicating his approaches. I further suspect that he has been trying to sort this on the phone, where the operators are just that,and field questions using a response sheet. I doubt very much that he has been speaking to an "accountant".

OP: WRITE or EMAIL a complaint. Don't go into your assumptions over the cause of the problem . Just point out that since the new meter has been fitted, your bill has risen by a factor of 35, which roughly equates to a confusion over imperial and metric. Maybe even include a link to Bernies OFGEM letter. Once in writing, they have to follow their procedures, and you have a verifiable correspondence trail, which will be useful if you have to complain to the Ombudsman and/or OFGEM

 

[D_Hailsham]

I am sure I am not in that position. My supplier is using Imperial values for the calorific value of the gas and that is 39.5 MJ per per unit of measurement and that 39.5 is the MJ per cu ft of Natural gas

The calorific value is, by law, always quoted as MJ per cubic metre. So it's 39.5 MJ per cubic metre.

I asked for a pic of the metre display; it would help sort out your problem.

Which boiler do you have and what is the kW output?

 

[John D v2.0]

I have a lot of sympathy for the OP. Big firms are a nightmare,once the wheel has fallen off. They seem incapable of taking a logical view of it all.

Yep, I couldn't agree more, and it's unbelievably frustrating. The phone people are mostly following narrow criteria to decide what to do.

I once had an issue that may or may not be reassuring to the OP (long story, skip to the next post if you already know how incompetent big companies can be) where I tried to switch supplier *cough* npower*cough* and nothing happened. I called them 2 months later and told them not to bother, but they said I wasn't even on the system yet as they had a backlog. So they wrote a note to "pre-cancel" my switch.

Roll on about 2 months and I got and email saying they couldn't switch my supply due to an objection from the previous supplier, but they'd try again in a couple of weeks. I called and told them not to, and they again said I wasn't on the system anyway. Roll on a couple of weeks and all the emails etc for switching to them arrived and they set up a direct debit. Called them and told them to stop it, and they said it's too late and they'll have to switch me and then I switch again. I called the current supplier and they said they didn't get a switch request at all. So I cancelled the direct debit and hoped that was it...

I moved out shortly after that and settled everything with the actual supplier. Then roll on another few months and suddenly I started getting emails asking why I didn't pay the bill etc. I couldn't actually get through any of their security questions, and I couldn't manage to register for online account, so they wouldn't speak to me. Then I found in an email that the supply address was actually somewhere I lived a couple of years before and they supplied me for some time there! That got me through security, and they decided to send it back to the old supplier as an "erroneous transfer". The story is long at every stage but suffice to say the previous supplier refused to undo the switch, and they carried on hassling me.

Eventually they said they needed me to send them a copy of my tenancy agreement to prove that I didn't live there any more! I asked if they believed me or not, they said yes, so I said OK I don't care what you do, get a manager to look at it and sort it out, but whatever happens, do not call me under any circumstances. I was massively annoyed by this time as this was september and we originally tried to switch the previous november.

Anyway, fast forward a year, and suddenly I started getting debt collectors calling asking for some name that I knew they were using on that account (they still kept emailing me about the account, but addressing it to another name so I knew who it was) That went on about once a month for about 6 months, and then nothing at all.

===

So the summary if you're still here, is their system only works in normal situation, and if something else happens they will basically act like it's your problem, but you can get past it with calm persistence. Just stay calm and keep explaining until they get it. If you like, going to Citizens Advice can be useful - they helped us a lot when our landlord left us with no safe heating for 7 weeks and no gas safety certificate (boiler was spilling, the wall was black around the break in the flue)

 

[John D v2.0]

Just get them to send someone out, usually the meter operators would know how things work. They can test and confirm to the co.

FYI these are the type of meter operators I meant
https://www.meteroperators.org.uk/members
However you are right that it is the supplier that sends someone but the testing is done by SGS, useful information available for the OP about the process here:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/gas-meter-accuracy-and-disputes#gas-meter-testing
""your supplier (or their agent) will arrange for the meter to be removed and a replacement installed.""

So OP if you quote this page at your supplier they might find the right box on the screen to tick and get it done.

 

[FiremanT]

. My supplier is using Imperial values for the calorific value of the gas and that is 39.5 MJ per per unit of measurement and that 39.5 is the MJ per cu ft of Natural gas, There is 35.31 times more MJ per Cu M, so the suppler is using Imperial conversions. Also if I average my annual usage over the last 17 years I come up with a figures which corresponds to about 2000 cu ft of gas per annum so approx 1000 cu ft for 6 months, which equates to 24000kwh per annum. The Smart Meters were installed in August and have totalled 1000 M3 in that time. Now that is over 35.000 cu ft and it has taken me 17 years to use that much gas. The number 1000 is very close to the number of CU FT I would have expected to consume, For this reason I am as sure as I can be that the Meter is calibrated in Cu FT although M3 is shown in the display. My supplier effectively confirms this as they are using imperial conversions i.e. 39.5 MJ per unit of measurement and that unit therefore must be cu ft. The 39.5 MJ figure was always the number used with my old imperial cu ft meter. If it were cu M then the conversion would be 1394.745 MJ/m3 (39.5x35.31 as there are 35.31 cu ft in 1 m3)
My supplier representative who I think is an accountant who plugs numbers into a predefined equation which a 10 year old child could do, still considers my Smart Meter is calibrated in M3. if that is the case then My gas consumption has gone up by a factor of 35. As historical figures agree with my Smart Meter only if it is calibrated in Cu Ft, I am certain as I can be that it its total is cu ft.
The supplier calculation are what I expect only if the Smart Meter is Cu Ft calibrated.
The whole thing is a Pigs Ear.

Your post above brings me out in a sweat. All we need is the facts. Trying to sort them out has made me realise something:
Is your new bill approx £1500 per annum? How big is your home? What type of boiler/system

My supplier is using Imperial values for the calorific value of the gas and that is 39.5 MJ per per unit of measurement and that 39.5 is the MJ per cu ft of Natural gas.

39Mj is per cubic METRE . If you had that on your old bill, maybe you have been underpaying for 17 years? Cu Ft is 1.06.

To repeat your meter WILL be reading in m3. If there is a mismatch, it will be the calculation

EDIT: is your anticipated bill about £1000 - £1100 (I have just checked a year old bill, and I was paying less than 4p per Kw, plus standing charges. 2000 m3,is about 23000Kw. As it happens, I used a bit over 24000Kw

Ypu claim that you shpuld be using 685Kw (24000/35), which is unrealistic.
So either you have been very fortunate, or I have grossly misunderstood your statements

 

[D_Hailsham]

I had a smart Gas Meter fitted in August 2017 and the units of Measure are indicated as M3. My old meter was calibrated in Cu Ft. Since installation of the meter I have recorded a usage of 1000M3. This equates to approx 35,000 cu ft. I have lived in my present house for 17 years and in that time my old meter recorded a usage of 36,000 cu ft in that 17 years approx 2100 ( approx 24,000kwh per annum) cu ft per annum.

Your numbers do not make any sense!

1. Imperial meters show consumption in 100's of cubic feet. So is your average 17 year consumption 2100 cubic ft or 2100 x100 cu ft? It makes a big difference!!
2. If it is 2100 cu ft this is equivalent to 21 x 2.83 x 1.02264 x 39.5 ÷ 3.6 kWh = 666.84 kWh
3. If it is 2100 x100 cu ft, this is equivalent to 2100 x 2.83 x 1.02264 x 39.5 ÷ 3.6 kWh = 66,684 kWh
4. Either way, it is nothing like the 24,000 kWh you suggest.

You say you have consumed 1000 m³ since August. This equals 1000 x 1.02264 x 39.5 ÷ 3.6 = 11,220 kWh. An average of 2,244 kWh per month over the approx 5 months since the meter was installed.

My average from Sept to March is 2550 kWh per month ; and over a whole year the average is 1730 kWh per month. So your consumption is not much different from mine.

Make sure that the new bills do not include the conversion factor of 2.83. This converts hundreds of cubic feet to cubic metres and is not needed if your meter reads in cubic metres.

 

[D_Hailsham]

The law I referred to earlier is The Gas (Calculation of Thermal Energy) Regulations 1996; SI 1996 No. 439.

 

[FiremanT]

Rereading my last post (late at night), I fear that I may nit have been as clear as I ought.

DH: You are correct,the figures are allover the place, and the volume of irrelevance makes it difficult to get to grips with it.

My main point above was that I strongly suspect that the OP has been UNDERCHARGED for 17 years by the gas co. , the current usage estimated (2000m3) equates to around 23,000 not 24,000 KWh, the latter being a tad less than I use. Which is why I said that if 23/24,000 KWh is approx 35 times greater than previous years, then the OP has been seriously undercharged, or lives under someone elses stairs, or in a seriously "green" home

The lack of feedback from the OP is disappointing, but TBF other things get in the way of looking at this.

It is amusing that everyone (inc. me) wrote responses in defence if the OP. It suddenly struck me that mine was a case of not seeing the wood for the trees - while I was trying to make sense of the OP, it clicked that it is highly unlikely that they are using less than a Kw per year

 

[John D v2.0]

Good spot there. Didn't even look at the figures in terms of pounds.

So the most relevant information to the op is that the gas company can only back charge a short period (2 years iirc) if the problem was due to their mistake not sure to fraud on your own part.

I reckon 100 cubic foot is about a pound so the op used about 20 pounds a year!

Nice going, but only doable if you don't use gas for heating and hot water.

 

[Hysteresis]

This has all received a great deal of attention which is not addressing the real issue. My new Smart meters are indicating M3 and the conversion of 39.5 MJ/M3 is the figure used by my new supplier which is Identical to the Calculation used by my previous suppliers using my Old Meter. My old Meter was 17 years old and I have always assumed the unit of measure was Cu Ft due to their age, but as all of my previous suppliers have used the 39.5 MJ figure then without doubt my 17 year old meters were calibrated in M3. So My error was the assumption that my old meter was calibrated in cu ft due to its age and as the new meters indicated as M3 it seemed incorrect that the new supplier would use the same conversion numbers as my old meters. My assumption that my old meters were Cu ft lead me to the conclusion that the new meters must also be in cu ft,
I was wrong, my assumption should have been the other way round and should have been that my old meters were calibrated in M3.
I could not access any old Bills as I use paperless billing and all bills became inaccessible from my previous supplier when my accounts were terminated. My New Supplier has not billed me yet as they have only been supplying me for 3 weeks. My question arose when checking the new suppliers calculation figures and things seemed to be at odds with the old Meter and MY Wrong assumption.
SO all is now resolved and both previous and present Smart Meters Are/Were all calibrated in M3.
Sorry about the confusion but I do appreciate the discussion that it generated