Smart Switch Issue - Outside 12v Lights

[bernardgreen]

But more to the point non of the bulbs have anything to say how much power is leaked.

And I doubt very much if many if any of the "smart" switches have anything to say about :-

(a) how much current / power they need when in the OFF state
(b) how much current they leak to the lamp when in the OFF state
(c) how power they dissipate in the switching device when in the ON state

For what it is worth,

Being aware of the lack of information and the trouble that comes when interfacing "smart" switching with "smart" lighting I decided that "smart" switching and "smart" lighting would be banned from the design for the re-wiring of my cottage.

With one exception all the fixed lighting is switched using relays controlled by 12 volt switching circuits. This allows for the use of small multicore cable for switch drops where cables have to be surface mounted due the way the walls are constructed.

This panel uses 12 core alarm cable

The push buttons at the bottom provide for dimming of the lamps and there is another switch in the other side of the wall.

There is an "intelligent" programable logic controller which provides features such as outside lights coming on when someone enters the yard after dark and timed ON periods when leaving the cottage after dark. Some quirky things like porch light coming ON when the door bell is pressed. Some security related items which I don't talk about.

All the components are designed by me and not by some "smart" company who may decide "on a whim" to remove support and/or availability of replacement compatible items.

 

[ericmark]

I have the box for two smart GU10 LED's at my left hand, 5 watt 500 lumen, but the non smart LED GU10 is 5 watt 470 lumen, so it seems smart bulbs use less power, yes seems wrong way around, but can only say what is marked on box.

 

[bernardgreen]

so it seems smart bulbs use less power,

It depends how the LED elements are driven, one element at 5 Watts or two elements of the same type but each at 2.5 Watt

The two elements will be more efficient as the light produced from the one element driven at 5 Watts will not be twice the light of the same element driven at 2.5 Watts

 

[JohnW2]

We have a range of 4 - 20 mA devices we use to measure when using PLC control, the first 4 mA is ignored by the PLC and is used to power the device which allows use of two wires instead of three.

How did PLCs get into this discussion?

With lighting and no neutral we are doing some thing similar, every bulb has a resistor or other device to allow a small amount of current to flow, it needs it anyway mainly due to the way we drop cables to the switch, two wires in a cable will have some capacitive linking, and with two way lighting we can have maybe 10 meters of cable, this was not a problem with tungsten, but it is with LED, so each bulb has some leakage device built it.

Are you sure about that? If it were universally true (and 'adequate'), would we not probably hear of far fewer complaints about flickering LEDs (when 'off') or failure of 'no neutral' devices to work properly, wouldn't we?

... that bit I don't understand, why fitting one of the large LED bulbs stops the other 4 from flicking I don't know, only that it does, I would assume it has stopped it forming a tuned circuit?

Given the frequencies we are talking about, I would think that is probably a pretty far-fetched suggestion, isn't it?

... With larger bulbs often one can buy smart bulbs, which at first went against the grain, as you a dumping all the control gear when it fails, but with all the problems I have had with smart switches with no neutral, I am now leaning towards smart bulbs, the main against is the time it takes to boot up Smartlife app to control them. However default is on, where with smart switch default is off, so switch the light off and on at wall and it works with smart bulbs.

I'm not sure whether I am amazed, incredulous, 'reactionary', sad or whatever - but I certainly do experience a range of emotions when I see the lengths to which some people go to have a source of light and a means of switching it on and off

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

Given the frequencies we are talking about, I would think that is probably a pretty far-fetched suggestion, isn't it?

No not sure, but flicker if due to bulb design would either be there or not there with each bulb, and if due to switch design would be there with all bulbs controlled by that switch, however change one bulb and all can stop flicking, so has to be interaction between bulb and switch, it seems down to luck, same bulb in two electronic switches will flicker in one and not in the other.

Clearly fitting a smoothing capacitor inside the bulb cures the problem, so we can blame the bulb, but I blamed the dimming switches for ages, however it also happens with on simple on/off switches where one can hear a relay click.

So lets hear what you think causes the flicker.

 

[JohnW2]

No not sure, but flicker if due to bulb design would either be there or not there with each bulb, and if due to switch design would be there with all bulbs controlled by that switch, however change one bulb and all can stop flicking, so has to be interaction between bulb and switch, it seems down to luck, same bulb in two electronic switches will flicker in one and not in the other.

Presumably using an 'electronic switch' to switch an 'electronic load' opens up countless possibilities for 'interactions' to occur. To use an electronic switch to switch a simple resistive load (like an incandescent bulb) is fair enough, as is using a simple mechanical switch to switch an 'electronic load'- but (with 'cheap' technology) for both to be be 'electronic' is perhaps asking for trouble - unless one uses 'switch' and load that are specifically designed to be used together.

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

The most pronounced "flicker" that I have seen was due to the interaction of several switch mode power supplies. They were the sort that had a pre regulator that took pulses of current from the mains at any point in the mains cycle. It was determined by experiment that a dip in the mains voltage occurred when a pre-regulator took current and this dip disturbed the action of other pre-regulators.

From what I recall the free running pre-regulators kept a capacitor charged at 150 Volts ( ? ) by switching the mains input ON when the capacitor was less than 145 Volts and then OFF when the voltage was above 155 Volts. The lights were ELV incandescent lamps.

( ? ) it might not have been 150 Volts

 

[ericmark]

interaction

That's the word I was looking for, neither the bulb or switch at fault, it is due to the interaction between the two. Maybe best way forward is to use DC for lighting, or of course one single device, like the smart light bulb?

 

[JohnW2]

That's the word I was looking for...

it seems as if your looking was successful, because ...

... so has to be interaction between bulb and switch

... neither the bulb or switch at fault, it is due to the interaction between the two. Maybe best way forward is to use DC for lighting, or of course one single device, like the smart light bulb?

... OR what about the revolutionary (I suppose actually 'reactionary') idea of using just a 'dumb light bulb' and a 'proper' (mechanical) switch (or, if you must, contacts of a relay whose coil is driven by some new-fangled electronics)?

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

(or, if you must, contacts of a relay whose coil is driven by some new-fangled electronics)?

Which is about the same as I suggested in post #16

 

[JohnW2]

Which is about the same as I suggested in post #16

It is.

I have no problem with control and/or automated systems if they serve a useful purpose (rather than gimmicks used 'because they exist'), even in a domestic environment, but life is so much simpler if the bottom line is their switching of (whatever) loads by something (like relay contacts' equivalent to a good old mechanical switch (which, unless faulty, would never make any light flicker or misbehave in any way)

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I simply don't want to run in new cables, and want to turn on bedroom light before I get out of bed.

 

[JohnW2]

I simply don't want to run in new cables, and want to turn on bedroom light before I get out of bed.

Would a battery-powered light on your bedside table not adequately address that requirement?

Kind Regards, Jiohn

 

[ericmark]

Would a battery-powered light on your bedside table not adequately address that requirement?

Kind Regards, Jiohn

As long as I can switch it on from the door.

 

[JohnW2]

As long as I can switch it on from the door.

You've moved the goalposts (or added an extra one!) now, since you are now asking for 'two-way switching', whereas all you asked for before was ...

I .... want to turn on bedroom light before I get out of bed.

I suppose you could address that extended requirement with a battery-powered and PIR-controlled light (with manual over-ride of the PIR) or (if you could find one) a battery-powered light with an (IR or whatever) 'remote control'.

However, although I admit that I now have two-way switching for my main bedroom light (in fact, 'three-way', since there are switches on both sides of the bed, as well as by the door, that is not a luxury I've always had (except when staying in hotels ). Previously, and in every other house I've lived in, I've had to walk the few steps between the door and bedside table, and then back, or vice versa, in order to have light both when I got into and out of bed, but without the main light having to stay on all night!

Kind Regards, John