That presumably would depend a lot on what was written on the cover and/or what they had been taught about the significance of socket covers in their working environment.
Kind Regards, John.
So Sad
- Thread starter Robgers
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Kind Regards, John.
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That is correct, and any input to alert us to products which are not currently mentioned on our cover review page is welcomed. (Although they are not yet listed on the review page, we are aware of the model currently sold at B&Q and a model bearing the legend "MLA 1390", both of which have very short L&N pins.)
Chris kindly told FatallyFlawed where to buy the type he shows, so that we could test some. They are some of the least bad we have seen, and although all of the pins are a little too short to meet BS 1363, the cross section of the pins is correct, but the pin centres are wider than BS 1363 permits, this helps to account for them being relatively hard to remove (although we absolutely did not need to use a tool, just an ordinary short finger nail). They are made of reasonably strong plastic, but the resilience of the material ensures that if placed firmly in the inverted position they will lock in place (the spring effect of the plate has the effect of increasing the friction force required to remove). This means that they would definitely keep the shutters of a conventional (non-MK) socket open.
The good news is that, although the distance between the dummy power pins and the periphery is only one third that required by BS 1363, the plates do completely cover the socket holes, so inserting one in an MK socket will not facilitate the insertion of pins etc.
We have never measured a plug which does not conform to BS 1363 dimensions, but none of the covers we have seen does!
Chris, thanks for your help.
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A "safe" lamp holder would be mechanically difficult to produce.
There is a fairly simple electronic way to detect a low impedance filament is in place before power is connected to the lamp holder and to remove power if the lamp is removed from the holder when power is applied.
But the cost of building that into every lamp holder would be un-economical compared to the very small number of fatalities that result from fingers in a live lamp holder.
There is a fairly simple electronic way to detect a low impedance filament is in place before power is connected to the lamp holder and to remove power if the lamp is removed from the holder when power is applied.
But the cost of building that into every lamp holder would be un-economical compared to the very small number of fatalities that result from fingers in a live lamp holder.
FatallyFlawed wrote:
Why would inserting a socket cover prevent an adult plugging in equipment? If they want to use the socket then they will remove the cover first.
That presumably would depend a lot on what was written on the cover and/or what they had been taught about the significance of socket covers in their working environment.
Kind Regards, John.
No, that's not the point. We're talking about disabled (dead) sockets in hospitals. Sockets are disabled for lots of reasons in this situation (load, damage - these are expensive purpose made units so any problems disconnect the damaged part, etc). In a hurry a nurse (usually) may plug into a dead socket with results which may take several minutes to work out, especially where there is battery backup as say on a driver. The usual answer is to put black tape over the dead socket, but this is aesthetically nasty (hospital held together with tape!) and impossible to clean. In a ward, nursing staff wil know that the cover is inserted into a dead socket. This is a situation specific; hence the original point.
Why would inserting a socket cover prevent an adult plugging in equipment? If they want to use the socket then they will remove the cover first.
That presumably would depend a lot on what was written on the cover and/or what they had been taught about the significance of socket covers in their working environment.
Kind Regards, John.
No, that's not the point. We're talking about disabled (dead) sockets in hospitals. Sockets are disabled for lots of reasons in this situation (load, damage - these are expensive purpose made units so any problems disconnect the damaged part, etc). In a hurry a nurse (usually) may plug into a dead socket with results which may take several minutes to work out, especially where there is battery backup as say on a driver. The usual answer is to put black tape over the dead socket, but this is aesthetically nasty (hospital held together with tape!) and impossible to clean. In a ward, nursing staff wil know that the cover is inserted into a dead socket. This is a situation specific; hence the original point.
I'm not sure why you're saying "that's not the point" - is it not the same as what I wrote, namely that the nurses would have been 'taught' the significance of the socket covers and therefore would know that they indicated a socket was dead?
Kind Regards, John
When the red pin is released, the switch moves to the off position, so to make any contact with the live pins, someone would have to depress the centre red pin fully while simultaneously sliding the switch to the on position.
Not something which is easy to do, and it is highly unlikely that a child could do it.
Certainly not impossible, but any safety mechanism can be defeated, including those in socket outlets.
MK also make a lampholder with a shutter:
http://www.mkelectric.com/en-gb/Products/WD/white/ceilingaccessories/Lampholders/Pages/1150WHI.aspx
Never used one, since the risk of a child or anyone else accidentally shoving their finger into a ceiling light fixture is practically zero.
Not something which is easy to do, and it is highly unlikely that a child could do it.
Certainly not impossible, but any safety mechanism can be defeated, including those in socket outlets.
MK also make a lampholder with a shutter:
http://www.mkelectric.com/en-gb/Products/WD/white/ceilingaccessories/Lampholders/Pages/1150WHI.aspx
Never used one, since the risk of a child or anyone else accidentally shoving their finger into a ceiling light fixture is practically zero.
Ah, I was wrong! I was not thinking that it was quite as clever as that. As you probably guessed, I was thinking that one would merely have to depress the red pin to make the other pins become potentially live (whilst one was quite posibly holding the earthed parts of the holder in one's other hand).
Kind Regards, John.
John,
You're right; my bad. I was linking your reply to that of fatally flawed (if they want to use the socket they will remove the cover) which whilst true, didn't relate to the situation in which someone pushes in a plug whilst their real interest is elsewhere.
You're right; my bad. I was linking your reply to that of fatally flawed (if they want to use the socket they will remove the cover) which whilst true, didn't relate to the situation in which someone pushes in a plug whilst their real interest is elsewhere.
So, if the socket is NEVER going to be used again, it MAY be acceptable to use a plug-in socket cover. However, to avoid the possibility that socket contacts are permanently damaged you should really make sure that the covers you use do not have oversize pins.
When I come across covers using oversize pins during a PIR I will always condemn the socket, and also seek reassurance from the client that similar covers have not been used in other sockets on the premises.
I see that the discussion went on during the holiday period.
This is a perfectly valid point, and we do draw attention to this at http://www.fatallyflawed.org.uk/html/other_dangers.html But, there is one clear differentiator between the fixed 13A socket, and other forms of socket danger (which include extension leads, detachable power leads with a non-protected equipment socket on the end, table and floor lamps, and of course the original subject of this thread). This is simply that the socket fixed to the wall is just that, fixed! All those other devices are amongst those that should be kept beyond the reach of children, but the permanency of the fixed socket is what makes it so important to not compromise it.
Yes, in the early days of the campaign that was one of our main thrusts, but there was very little willingness, or perhaps ability, to understand the issue. Rather than take a logical view of the dangers inherent in their products, the suppliers rely on a lack of customer complaint to justify inaction. IKEA did say that they would increase the size of their cover plate, but when they eventually did so it was by only 1mm, far short of the change necessary to eliminate the possibility of inserting a pin or paper clip alongside the dummy power pin. One particularly interesting comment was from Boots, they claimed to have a representative on the relevant BS committee but did not offer any justification as to why they ignore the BS 1363 dimensions!
That is very interesting, I wonder if other PIR contractors take the same action?
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