Solar panels with no smart meter?

[JohnW2]

Tariffs are becoming more sophisticated - intelligent octopus, agile import, agile export etc....

Indeed so. However, there are several factors in operation which may well eventually have the effect of reducing the variation in demand during the 24 hours of a day/night, so it could well be that the need for (and advantage of having) 'sophisticated tariffs' will gradually diminish over time.

Kind Regards, John

 

[StephenStephen]

Indeed so. However, there are several factors in operation which may well eventually have the effect of reducing the variation in demand during the 24 hours of a day/night, so it could well be that the need for (and advantage of having) 'sophisticated tariffs' will gradually diminish over time.

Kind Regards, John

Reducing the variation in demand, and also matching variation in demand to variation in supply, is exactly the intended effect of TOU tariffs.

 

[JohnW2]

Reducing the variation in demand, and also matching variation in demand to variation in supply, is exactly the intended effect of TOU tariffs.

Of course it is (in terms of supply from the grid).

However, in term of some of the 'factors' I mentioned, if things such as progressive increases nocturnal EV charging and progressively increased daytime solar micro-generation etc. etc. result in a marked reduction in circadian variation (in demand from the grid), then the need for the financial incentive of TOU tariffs will presumably progressively decrease.

Kind Regards, John

 

[StephenStephen]

Of course it is (in terms of supply from the grid).

However, in term of some of the 'factors' I mentioned, if things such as progressive increases nocturnal EV charging and progressively increased daytime solar micro-generation etc. etc. result in a marked reduction in circadian variation (in demand from the grid), then the need for the financial incentive of TOU tariffs will presumably progressively decrease.

Kind Regards, John

...yes there could be some coincidental reduction in variation between supply and demand, (eg; cars are generally used less at night when other electricity use tends to be lower) and potentially some of it could be created structurally, for example in shifting solar panel orientation towards the west.
...and of course there will continue to be variations which are most cheaply and easily smoothed through TOU tariffs, for example windy Sundays, the 4 till 7 daily peak, everyone plugging their car in at a similar time, generators going offline, variability of solar output, interconnector issues, etc

 

[ericmark]

the set up we have now, should we ever get an EV just needs 1 more part to prioritise the EV over the immersion. That would make sense

We decided to go for the iboost which we were told would only heat the DHW once the battery was full and so exporting, however 9 pm and I found it was heating water from the battery, clearly not working as it should.

Unlike the inverter which has a display I can see on the computer, the iboost has just a small window which says

well in my case 0.58 kW, but at 9 pm there is no solar, lucky the unit sings when running, must be some sort of current limiting unit, so got the torch to look at it.

The house load did seem wrong, I had tested at the CU and found there was a load on three RCBO's which also pointed to some thing wrong, front of house yes expect a load, three freezers, but also a load at rear of house and immersion heater, at the moment it says using 400 watt, TV, lights, and freezers I will guess, I have two plug in monitors, so now I need to slowly move them around and find out exactly where the power is going.

 

[SpecialK]

We decided to go for the iboost which we were told would only heat the DHW once the battery was full and so exporting, however 9 pm and I found it was heating water from the battery, clearly not working as it should.

Unlike the inverter which has a display I can see on the computer, the iboost has just a small window which says View attachment 314121 well in my case 0.58 kW, but at 9 pm there is no solar, lucky the unit sings when running, must be some sort of current limiting unit, so got the torch to look at it.

The house load did seem wrong, I had tested at the CU and found there was a load on three RCBO's which also pointed to some thing wrong, front of house yes expect a load, three freezers, but also a load at rear of house and immersion heater, at the moment it says using 400 watt, TV, lights, and freezers I will guess, I have two plug in monitors, so now I need to slowly move them around and find out exactly where the power is going.

They dont work well with hybrid inverters. Ideally you want the iboost wired in before the inverters CT clamp so the inverter cant see it as a load.
Can you set a larger offset on the iboost before it triggers?

 

[ericmark]

The iBoost must be old, it says IEE regulations how long has it been IET?

It seems I can set the time, and I can set timed heating even if no solar, and use the boost button for 15 minute increments up to 120 minutes, but no way to set how much is exported before it turns on. If there is a loss of coms it should show it as a fault. Placed here I am surprised if it does not over heat, and near impossible the read the display. It is in an airing cupboard, so it is always hot, that's the idea of an airing cupboard. Hind sight it would have been better in my bedroom where it can be read and is a lot cooler.

I had actually expected it to be fitted in the back kitchen, the immersion is on a dedicated circuit, so it could have gone right by the consumer unit, however it's not doing its job, so they need to fix it. If they had asked for an area to be cleared I would have done so, they asked for loft access, and nothing went in the loft. No one went in it for the whole of the install.

 

[SpecialK]

The iBoost must be old, it says IEE regulations how long has it been IET?

It seems I can set the time, and I can set timed heating even if no solar, and use the boost button for 15 minute increments up to 120 minutes, but no way to set how much is exported before it turns on. If there is a loss of coms it should show it as a fault. Placed here View attachment 314131 I am surprised if it does not over heat, and near impossible the read the display. It is in an airing cupboard, so it is always hot, that's the idea of an airing cupboard. Hind sight it would have been better in my bedroom where it can be read and is a lot cooler.

I had actually expected it to be fitted in the back kitchen, the immersion is on a dedicated circuit, so it could have gone right by the consumer unit, however it's not doing its job, so they need to fix it. If they had asked for an area to be cleared I would have done so, they asked for loft access, and nothing went in the loft. No one went in it for the whole of the install.

- Says only on models 2019+ . Can you wire the immersion circuit in before the inverters CT? Probably not possible without splitting the tails and having a new CU for the immersion? If this is a new install can you ask for a newer one?

 

[ericmark]

Thank you for that, the instructions I found did not say anything about the off set. Seems likely they only need to increase the off set, but today hardly got any solar power all day, and to be frank if they have to travel 150 miles to set it up it's their own fault for not leaving me the manual.

I now read "In all cases note that when installing CT clamps, each must be separated by approximately 10cm to avoid measurement errors." this seems likely the problem.

I have now found the iBoost+ instructions but even they don't say much about setting the cut in point, it is only on their web site.

However for the iBoost+ to be heating water at 9 pm it is more than just the setting, seems likely the CT clamp is too close to some thing which is causing interference, it is pressed hard against the meter.

 

[JohnW2]

...yes there could be some coincidental reduction in variation between supply and demand, (eg; cars are generally used less at night when other electricity use tends to be lower) and potentially some of it could be created structurally, for example in shifting solar panel orientation towards the west.
...and of course there will continue to be variations which are most cheaply and easily smoothed through TOU tariffs, for example windy Sundays, the 4 till 7 daily peak, everyone plugging their car in at a similar time, generators going offline, variability of solar output, interconnector issues, etc

Yes, there will obviously always be some variations (some reasonably 'predictable', some less so), both in demand and supply, but it's very possible that those variations will reduce (due to reasons other than TOU tariffs).

As I've observed before, using the financial incentive of TOU tariffs to partially address imbalances between supply and demand only really works when only a minority of consumers take advantage of them, the financial benefit to them being effectively subsidised by those who do not 'enjoy' such tariffs. If a high proportion of, say, EV users switched their EV charging to a period that had previously been very low demand (hence very low cost, per TOU tariff) that would have the counter-productive effect of changing a period of very low demand to a period of very high demand.

Ultimately, the ideal (which won't happen in my lifetime) would presumably be to have a very 'intelligent' automated system, based on widespread deployment of 'smart loads/appliances' that sought to balance supply and demand at all times of day/night - and the more successful that was, the less need would their be for varying electricity prices at different times of day/night

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I was considering more battery storage when I first saw the figures, but all the data collected so far is useless because of the fault with the iBoost+. I think now looking at the system that the CT coil pressed hard against the meter was giving a false reading due to the CT coil in the meter. To have 200 mm between the CT coils means one needs at least 450 mm between the meter and the solar CT coil, and this is not the case.

So it seems @SpecialK has found the fault. I blame the installers, had they not run off with the manual, I may have found the problem earlier.

We were leaning towards more battery capacity, but until the iboost+ is working as it should, we really don't know if required. Winter the iboost+ will do nothing anyway, the oil will heat the water, so we are looking for data before we turn on the central heating, so way weather is today likely spring before we can make a decision as to if we need more battery capacity.

 

[SpecialK]

I was considering more battery storage when I first saw the figures, but all the data collected so far is useless because of the fault with the iBoost+. I think now looking at the system that the CT coil pressed hard against the meter was giving a false reading due to the CT coil in the meter. To have 200 mm between the CT coils means one needs at least 450 mm between the meter and the solar CT coil, and this is not the case.

So it seems @SpecialK has found the fault. I blame the installers, had they not run off with the manual, I may have found the problem earlier.

We were leaning towards more battery capacity, but until the iboost+ is working as it should, we really don't know if required. Winter the iboost+ will do nothing anyway, the oil will heat the water, so we are looking for data before we turn on the central heating, so way weather is today likely spring before we can make a decision as to if we need more battery capacity.

I have a few CT coils next to each other and they seem to read fine. The issue with the iboost is it will have a fight with a hybrid inverter. The inverter accidently exports a little as it overshoots and the iboost sees this as an export. The iboost then takes the export and pumps it in to the immersion using a little electric and the hybrid sees this as load and will try to counteract it! Well that is how it seems to work for me.

I have a sunsynk and a mk2pvrouter for my excess diversion. When first installed it just emptied the battery without a high export margin. In the end I wired it up so the inverter doesn't see it as a load as I didn't want to see 200W going back to the grid before the diverter used the excess.

Big batteries are great but expensive unless you DIY them.

 

[ericmark]

Clearly now down to the installer to correct, he tried to say the nice picture showing how the power is being handled it from a server in china and has a large sampling time, so is only approximate, however the readings on the top of same page are local, so this

is reasonably accurate as to how much is transferred. The figures shown are rather messed up due to power being switched off to work on the system on that day, however he says the decision on if we need more battery capacity should be based on those readings.

However until the iboost+ is working as wanted, we don't know how much excess we will have each day, today for example there has been no feed in energy all day, and battery still only 5% charged, and this with iboost+ switched off. But some days seen 9 kWh exported.

I think I may have made a mistake getting solar panels fitted, we were told before fitting around 6 years to break even, but today the figures I have recorded show more like 12 years.

OK we now have battery back up which likely will run our freezers for weeks in the event of a power outage, although very little else, so now no need for a generator as back up, but £800 would have bought a generator, not £11k. So beginning to think maybe not the right move?

 

[SpecialK]

Clearly now down to the installer to correct, he tried to say the nice picture showing how the power is being handled it from a server in china and has a large sampling time, so is only approximate, however the readings on the top of same page are local, so this View attachment 314168 is reasonably accurate as to how much is transferred. The figures shown are rather messed up due to power being switched off to work on the system on that day, however he says the decision on if we need more battery capacity should be based on those readings.

However until the iboost+ is working as wanted, we don't know how much excess we will have each day, today for example there has been no feed in energy all day, and battery still only 5% charged, and this with iboost+ switched off. But some days seen 9 kWh exported.

I think I may have made a mistake getting solar panels fitted, we were told before fitting around 6 years to break even, but today the figures I have recorded show more like 12 years.

OK we now have battery back up which likely will run our freezers for weeks in the event of a power outage, although very little else, so now no need for a generator as back up, but £800 would have bought a generator, not £11k. So beginning to think maybe not the right move?

Have you setup your SEG payments? You should be able to get 15p/kWh for the exports?
It all depends how much you use a day as to how quick the payback will be.
For example yesterday my house used 14kWh - 0kWh from the grid. Essentially saving me £4.20 if I assume its 30p/kWh to import?

 

[StephenStephen]

Ultimately, the ideal (which won't happen in my lifetime) would presumably be to have a very 'intelligent' automated system, based on widespread deployment of 'smart loads/appliances' that sought to balance supply and demand at all times of day/night - and the more successful that was, the less need would their be for varying electricity prices at different times of day/night

TOU tariffs have been both the informational channel and the economic driver for...

intelligent' automated system, based on widespread deployment of 'smart loads/appliances' that balance supply and demand at all times of day/night

...for many years in this country, and are becoming more widespread all the time.