Solar Photovoltaic Microgeneration.

[ban-all-sheds]

Isn't that one of those ad hominem duberrys that you whinge about

No.

That would be, for example, if I tried to argue that you were wrong about a cable sizing calculation because of your dodgy views on the FIT subsidy scheme.

 

[spongsdad]

I share the opinion that, in these latitudes, the amount of solar radiation we receive means that, without subsidy, present systems are uneconomic. This doesn't mean that they will necessarily be so in the future.

On the contrary, they can never be economic. The output of this generation can never be counted towards the capacity needed to meet maximum demand because of the variability of sunlight. You need backup generation too. That doubles the capital cost of capacity.

Back in the 1970's electricity was overpriced because of the massive subsidy in favour of the coal industry. Thatcher brought this to an end and the cost of electricity fell. Labour got back in and grabbed subsidies for their pet ideas of carbon taxing. We are now paying more or less the same cross subsidy as in the 1970's.

The FIT is a particularly nasty subsidy because it takes from the poor who can't afford to buy plant to stick on their roof and gives to the rich who can. Don't say that the poor can have their installation paid for: they lose the huge value of the FIT and are only left with the value of the kWh generated.

By your logic, all forms of renewables that are weather dependent i.e. solar energy and wind energy cannot be relied on as a secure alternative source of energy. I am minded to agree with you but I might argue that it is possible to allow us a little diversity here. The days that are windy may not be sunny; equally the days that are sunny may not be windy. However I do concede that there are sunless, windless days in winter. We probably need nuclear power after all.
However, this is a DIY forum and I think it is better not to enter into the ethics as opposed to the practicalities of alternative energy sources.

 

[Stoday]

The overall grid system maximum demand occurs around 5 or 5.30 p.m. on a December or January weekday. It's always dark then. Hence there is no diversity; pv cannot contribute anything to the capacity required.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

However, this is a DIY forum and I think it is better not to enter into the ethics as opposed to the practicalities of alternative energy sources.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

 

[echoes]

There are also people who believe that a cosmic Jewish Zombie can make them live forever if they symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him they accept him as their master, so he can remove an evil force from their soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

Priceless!

And just in time for the rapturous end-times which start tomorrow, apparently (about 5 o'clock, just before tea-time).
I will supply insurance policies - any cover, any price.

 

[pjcomp]

Any discussion about renewables gets bogged down in multiple topics, and reasoned discussion goes out the window because the different sub-headings get confused.

1 - does the technology work, ie produce electricity?

2 - does it produce enough on its own to replace the existing grid system? And if not, does that actually matter?

3 - how much does it cost? If it costs more than the present system does that rule it out? What if the present system becomes more expensive, does the renewable then get ruled back in? Is there time to get it back in before the lights go out?

Obviously all these become interdependent in an individual's decision whether or not to go with a new technology, but just because it costs a lot doesn't mean it doesn't work. Just because a wind turbine produces less than Sellafield doesn't mean it's pointless.

PJ

 

[riveralt]

.... but just because it costs a lot doesn't mean it doesn't work. Just because a wind turbine produces less than Sellafield doesn't mean it's pointless.
PJ

But it will become pointless if and when you flick a switch and nothing happens because we stopped nuclear/coal/gas power stations producing electricity and relied on sea, sun and wind.
If we do go down that green and pleasant route then buy shares in..

http://www.candlemakers.co.uk/cmproduct/index.html

 

[pjcomp]

Who's talking about turning off power stations? It's this sort of comment which turns debate into pointless noise. But in planning for the future it's worth bearing in mind how much of our gas and oil (and uranium) comes from other countries, and question how much power we could generate if those countries decided to hang on to it for their own use.

PJ

 

[ban-all-sheds]

1 - does the technology work, ie produce electricity?

Yes.

2 - does it produce enough on its own to replace the existing grid system?

No.

And if not, does that actually matter?

No, just as long as you want little more than lighting powered by electricity, and then only when the sun is shining.

If, however, you'd like more electricity than that, and would like it at any time of the day or night......

3 - how much does it cost?

Huge amounts.

If it costs more than the present system does that rule it out?

You tell us.

Multiply your electricity bills by 10 and tell us if that would rule out the use of electricity by you.

Obviously all these become interdependent in an individual's decision whether or not to go with a new technology, but just because it costs a lot doesn't mean it doesn't work.

If it costs more than people can afford to pay, who will use it?

And if any public money is to be invested, would that not be better spent reducing demand rather than increasing supply?

Just because a wind turbine produces less than Sellafield doesn't mean it's pointless.

Unfair comparison - Sellafield doesn't produce electricity....

 

[riveralt]

Who's talking about turning off power stations? It's this sort of comment which turns debate into pointless noise.

Well actually you are here...

But in planning for the future it's worth bearing in mind how much of our gas and oil (and uranium) comes from other countries, and question how much power we could generate if those countries decided to hang on to it for their own use.PJ

It is amazing how many people seem to live in the green bubble world of narnia. Their insatiable desire to promote renewables, at any cost, regardless of their effectiveness, couple with their ostrich like belief that somehow renewables will provide us with all the energy we need is absolute rubbish. Furthermore, when challenged over the practicality of this desire and cost effectiveness the best they can come up with is 'insulate your homes'.
You reflect this belief in your three questions outlined above - commendable as they are- you have missed one question out..
Is the electricity instantly available?

Well the answer for renewables is no in so far as wind power is concerned - at best 35% of the time - as far as nuclear is concerned 90% of the time.

Obviously all these become interdependent in an individual's decision whether or not to go with a new technology, but just because it costs a lot doesn't mean it doesn't work. Just because a wind turbine produces less than Sellafield doesn't mean it's pointless.
PJ

Your comparison of wind power with nuclear power does actually re-enforce the fact that wind power is pointless in terms of availability and cost effectiveness.
According to a Scottish University report there are 19 nuclear reactors operating out of 9 locations. To replace each reactor with wind power would require approximately 5000 land turbines - so we would need 95000 turbines. And remember that nuclear accounts for around 20% of our electricity needs.
I will concede that wind power is more efficient that pv systems - but in terms of cost effectiveness and efficiency both are pointless and neither would survive without a significant subsidy from the government.

 

[17thman]

what a tiresome topic, in its form, this has become. There is limited uranium, coal, gas, etc, If Mr Smith of 10 railway cuttings wants to power his lights by pv generation, let him. its is saving on our resources.

and saying that, the limited traditional resources of our planet will eventuallually expire.Some day in the mid/far future there will be vast pv generation in africa, cental america, australia and india and china. yes we will pay for it to be transmitted here, but the human resolve, inginuity and demand will make it happen.

we will run out of uranium and even nuclear fusion will deplete our resources, so i ask

Are we at the cutting edge of change, tough though it is.

Steam train drivers used to talk about steam trains all the time, even 10 years after deisels came in. some of them still do.

There are three certainties, The Sun, The Wind, The Sea. Its all in the transmittion. There will be a world wide grid sooner or later.

Grow up disbelievers and lets experiment and have some failures for the the sake of our grand childrens children.

and by the way, if you live in devon and are refusing to have wind turbines built, get real, you might get a job maintaining them. or is it the second home owners who dont like it?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If Mr Smith of 10 railway cuttings wants to power his lights by pv generation, let him. its is saving on our resources.

Indeed let him (even though he'll have a problem making the lights work at night, when he wants them).

Just don't make everybody else help pay for his exercise in futility.

and saying that, the limited traditional resources of our planet will eventuallually expire.Some day in the mid/far future there will be vast pv generation in africa, cental america, australia and india and china. yes we will pay for it to be transmitted here, but the human resolve, inginuity and demand will make it happen.

That may happen.

If it does, do you think that this country will be a favored site for PV arrays?

Grow up disbelievers and lets experiment and have some failures for the the sake of our grand childrens children.

FIT incentives are not designed to fund worthwhile experiments.

They are there so that on paper the government can claim to have reduced CO2 emissions. And even that is b*ll*cks when you look at the amount of CO2 expended in the mining, refining, manufacturing and transportation associated with PV panels.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I don't agree with wind generation. It's windy enough already.

 

[17thman]

See Bas, think ahead, we are at the cutting edge, your name will not be up in lights!

 

[17thman]

as i said Bas, its all in the transmition, the worls willl find a way. and if you dig into your inner most talent, you know it.