Solar Photovoltaic Microgeneration.

[spongsdad]

Has anybody got experience of these solar pv microgeneration systems systems, either as an installer or as a client? Without the benefit of the feed in tariff, it seems that they would be totally uneconomic but the feed in rate seems to make it a practical proposition as the payment is made per KwH even if the consumer does not export it and uses the power himself. Assuming the conditions for the installation are favourable; south facing roof, 30+ sq mtrs of roof space, location unshaded etc. it seems like a no brainer to me so long as one can avoid the usual hazards of cowboy installers and here today gone tomorrow companies. All feedback welcome

 

[ricicle]

Someone I work with has just had it installed. He reckons on about 6 years payback on his with the FIT. System is (supposedly) guaranteed for 25 years.

But remember the bird poo and moss, dirt etc reducing the efficiency of the panels.

 

[pjcomp]

Solar PV panels are coated in a self-cleaning material - as long as they have at least a 10 degree pitch anything that falls on them will be washed off by the rain. The recent dry spell may mean that bird droppings will be in place a bit longer than usual, but moss won't grow on the panels aes there's nowhere for it to get a grip.

As regards the original post, yes it looks like a no-brainer, but as said you need enough roof space to be facing the right way to get the benefits, and you need the money to invest. With a 10-12 per cent rate of return, that's a lot better than the building society and given the latest warnings on gas and electric prices going up again next winter, there's another reason to go the microgeneration route.

But, it's not a get rich quick scheme. The feed-in tariffs are designed to help get a fledgeling industry off the ground and create enough awareness and use to make it viable in its own right (remember mobile phones? started with expensive suitcases and now they're given away free).

Solar PV isn't the answer to the energy crunch, but it's part of the answer. There'll be lots more technologies coming, and I believe future power supplies will be made up of lots of little bits rather than the one big chunk we have at the momen. OK, off my soapbox ....

And yes, I am an installer, so I'm biased, but I've also got them on my own roof because I'm a believer.

PJ

 

[ericmark]

BBC radio 4 has just done something on this. They seem to think the central heating boilers with sterling engines are worth while but rest just not working as label says.

There are reports after reports of not getting the output advertised and the grid link inverters failing.

Having tried to use a large inverter I know they do fail and it cost a fortune to get fixed.

It is expected as inflation causes the price of fuel to rise the payment from the energy companies for power put into grid will not follow so although at the moment the payment is good it is unlikely to remain so good.

It is a gamble of course. And I am sure many people have and will make money from the systems.

What I find odd is there seems to be no way not to use grid tie. So even though you are able to produce your own power. In a power cut you still have no power like every one else.

 

[spongsdad]

And yes, I am an installer, so I'm biased, but I've also got them on my own roof because I'm a believer.

PJ

Can I ask how many systems you've installed, how long you have been doing this work and what a typical cost per installed KwHp would be?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Without the benefit of the feed in tariff, it seems that they would be totally uneconomic

What a surprise.

So where's the morality in making every electricity consumer pay to subsidise a pointless hobby indulged in by idiots?

With a 10-12 per cent rate of return, that's a lot better than the building society

Is it?

If I invest £10,000 in a BS then in 10 years time I will still have that £10,000 to withdraw and spend on something.

If I spend £10,000 on a useless solar PV system, what will it be worth in 10 years time, and how could I sell the system to get the money to spend on something?

and given the latest warnings on gas and electric prices going up again next winter, there's another reason to go the microgeneration route.

You don't think that it might be a good idea to install something which will generate real electricity, not the pretend stuff?

But, it's not a get rich quick scheme.

I'm hoping that it'll be a serves-you-right-for-being-a-callous-greedy-idiot-make-you-poor-quick scheme.

I'm hoping that the Spanish retroactive cuts and cancellations to FIT contracts will stick, and that they spread.

I'm hoping that the uncertainties of things like that will cause investment in companies involved in the useless small-scale solar PV market to dry up and for them to go out of business.

I've also got them on my own roof because I'm a believer.

I'm sure you are.

There are also people who believe that a cosmic Jewish Zombie can make them live forever if they symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him they accept him as their master, so he can remove an evil force from their soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

Being a believer is not a substitute for science.

There are reports after reports of not getting the output advertised

What a surprise.

 

[bernardgreen]

There are dubious claims about the amount of power that can be generated.

There are concerns that if you install a subsidised system on your roof and set up an agreement to feed excess power into the grid then
this might create problems if you want to sell your house.

In the words an estate agent " you will have a sitting tenant on your roof that the buyer will have to accept"[/b]

 

[riveralt]

While micro-generation systems are the way to go in the future, in this country, with its glorious sunshine , they are a very inefficient means of generating electricity. And lets face it, without the huge transfer subsidy from the poor to the rich, would not be cost effective.

You are probably better off waiting for a few more months and buying one of these http://freeenergytruth.blogspot.com/2011/05/cold-fusion-device-e-catalyzer-granted.html
its got more chance of saving the environment and you money than solar pv panels.

 

[spongsdad]

Thanks to all who tried to answer my original post in a considered way; not least to BAS who managed in his inimitable manner to insult all whose views he doesn't share.

Without the benefit of the feed in tariff, it seems that they would be totally uneconomic

What a surprise.

So where's the morality in making every electricity consumer pay to subsidise a pointless hobby indulged in by idiots?

Tell me BAS, have you always been so offensive, or did it require years of practice?

It seems to me that this is a bandwagon on which governments, the EU and large multinationals have jumped. As such, much economic activity is being generated and the boundaries of knowledge are being extended. I share the opinion that, in these latitudes, the amount of solar radiation we receive means that, without subsidy, present systems are uneconomic. This doesn't mean that they will necessarily be so in the future.

I'm not sure what you mean by pretend electricity. Given your propensity for precision in your writing-some might say pedantry-I can't really believe that you are saying pv electricty doesn't exist. Perhaps you use the expression because the industry and legislatures operate in a way that is not in line with your view of the world. Sadly, I think that accusing of idiocy those who hold different views from your own does nothing to enhance the acceptability of your own opinions.

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You would.

Your unscrupulous venality comes as no surprise to me.

 

[spongsdad]

BAS is like most protesters, they shout and scream at the wrong people.

You are taking advantage of a ridiculous payment scheme set up by government, and I say good luck to you.

Well not quite; at least not yet. My original post was an attempt to obtain opinions from people who work in the electrical contracting business. It is something of a discouragement to use a forum like this when instead of objective comment, contributors expose themselves to ridicule and invective.
Whoops, I don't want to give the impression of being thin skinned-far from it.
What I really want to get over is my view that people's opinions and views are much better respected if they are delivered with good manners. That, unfortunately, is greatly lacking in 21st century Britain.

Cheers, GW

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[Stoday]

I share the opinion that, in these latitudes, the amount of solar radiation we receive means that, without subsidy, present systems are uneconomic. This doesn't mean that they will necessarily be so in the future.

On the contrary, they can never be economic. The output of this generation can never be counted towards the capacity needed to meet maximum demand because of the variability of sunlight. You need backup generation too. That doubles the capital cost of capacity.

Back in the 1970's electricity was overpriced because of the massive subsidy in favour of the coal industry. Thatcher brought this to an end and the cost of electricity fell. Labour got back in and grabbed subsidies for their pet ideas of carbon taxing. We are now paying more or less the same cross subsidy as in the 1970's.

The FIT is a particularly nasty subsidy because it takes from the poor who can't afford to buy plant to stick on their roof and gives to the rich who can. Don't say that the poor can have their installation paid for: they lose the huge value of the FIT and are only left with the value of the kWh generated.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Tell me BAS, have you always been so offensive, or did it require years of practice?

Do you find the unvarnished, un-mealy-mouthed, mustn't-call-a-spade-a-spade truth offensive?

I wonder if you find it more or less offensive then I find the idiocy of domestic solar PV in this country, the dreadful wealth redistribution of FIT subsidies, and the people who jump on the bandwagon just to make a bit of money by skimming the electricity bills of people less well off than them?

I'm not sure what you mean by pretend electricity.

Sorry - I really meant "pretend generation capability".

They are toys.

They will never produce enough electricity with enough reliability and predictability for it to make any practical difference to the amount of central generating capacity that we need.

Did you know that some suppliers don't even bother to measure how much you feed into the grid? They just pay you for a portion of what you produce, because in comparison with their mainstream capacity it's so trivial that it isn't worth them fitting export meters.