Starter issues

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My Peugeot 2.5TD has always started with no problem until yesterday when there was zero response when I turned the key. I turned it a few times and didn't even hear a click. Opening the bonnet, there was a cloud of acrid smoke. I took the starter out and found evidence of charred plastic around the thin red wire coming from the battery and some bits of melted solder in various places near the other connections.

I tested the starter and the solenoid with a spare battery. Neither worked, and I kept getting the sort of spark that suggested shorting. I checked continuity and found it between the main lead into the starter motor and the starter casing, and between the thin red wire terminal on the solenoid and the starter casing; but not between the two thick terminals on the solenoid and anywhere else.

I also tested the thin red wire coming from the van battery to the small spade shaped terminal that fits on the solenoid. This thin wire runs alongside the much thicker cable that attaches elsewhere on the solenoid. Both were >12v. I expected his for the thick cable, but I was anticipating having to turn the ignition key to get the thin red wire to show any voltage. There appears to be a relay at the battery end of these two red wires.

It seems the starter and solenoid are bust but what I'm wondering is whether the thin red wire from the battery should be showing 12v without the ignition key being turned. Surely, the voltage should come with the key turn?

I'm confused by all this and would welcome any suggestions or insights. I can't quite grasp what might have happened to cause such a calamitous result.
 
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Anything that would stop the starter from turning would cause excessively high current to flow and therefore melt supply wires/wire ends/solder. Or a failure in the starter to earth, a short. Or the starter engaged because of a fault in the small signal wire circuit?
Signal wire to the solenoid, little one, should be controlled by the key having to go into the start position to get 12Volts. So try a test bulb to ensure you actually have 12Volts all the time, the voltmeter will not load the circuit enough. But it looks as though the starter may have been engaged while the engine was running, if you still have 12volts all the time on the signal wire? Hence the meltdown.

You will have to trace back to find the relay (small solenoid) that controls the signal wire to the starter, worth checking the fuse box diagram for anything (relay) labelled starter, just pull it out and see if you loose the 12Volts on the signal wire to the starter.

Hope this helps ..................

Edit 1:
The larger of the two wires goes to the + terminal on the battery and will short if it touches any steelwork (-) on the van. Doubtful if it goes through a relay.
 
But it looks as though the starter may have been engaged while the engine was running, if you still have 12volts all the time on the signal wire? Hence the meltdown. .

I doubt that happened as the last time the engine was running was a couple of weeks ago and there was no burning small or smoke then. Yesterday, neither starter nor engine engaged at all.

There seems to be some sort of relay near the positive battery terminal that the thin red wire goes into while the thick cable bypasses it. There are several other wires going into it too. I wonder if this controls the preheat too. This is not easily removable, so I can't really test it.

I'm a bit confused by what you say concerning the 12v I found at the solenoid end of the thin red wire, which I expected only to show up when the ignition key was turned. Are you saying 12v could show there on a multimeter, but not be enough to actually do anything; but that it would become strong enough, after turning of the ignition key? I can probably test it under a load. Would a computer fan be an okay substitute for a bulb?
 
Yes try the fan if you have nothing else
 
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Well, after being unable to work on my van for a while, I finally fitted a new starter yesterday (£45, including delivery from France, via Mister Auto) and the instant I connected the battery leads the engine started cranking.

That suggests to me the relay is at fault. The only trouble is, I can't find it. Does anyone have any idea where it is? There's something wrapped up inside a mass of electrical tape near the battery that the thin red wire from the solenoid passes through ... might that be it?
 
It certainly looks like a relay, now I've uncovered it's face. There are four wires going the other end of it, including the thin one coming from the solenoid.


Is there any way of testing it? All I can think to do is removing it and checking the 12 v at the solenoid end of the thin red wire is no longer there.
 
Apply a voltage across the left two terminals and the relay should click.
For the life of me, I've never seen circuitry like this!
John :)
 
When I finally removed the relay and shook it it had something rattling inside. I subsequently tested it and it seems dead.

It's a 40 A VW relay and when I searched for a replacement it turns out it is for "intake manifold heating" on Polos and suchlike. How it found its way onto my J5 starter circuit I have no idea, but the terminals are all different sizes, with dedicated connectors that look original.

Maybe it's more of a 'general use' relay than it claims. I'll buy one, fit it and see what happens.
 
Disconnect the relay and see does the starter stop turning when you reconnect the battery? If it does then you have the correct relay?

Pin 85 = Earth
Pin 86 = +12 Volts when you want 30 to connect to 87 (signal wire)
Pin 30 = +12volts
Pin 87 = to the load (starter)

If you have located the correct relay, any 4 pin 12volt relay with contacts rated at 40 Amps or above will get you going.

Hope this helps
 
Disconnect the relay and see does the starter stop turning when you reconnect the battery? If it does then you have the correct relay?

Pin 85 = Earth
Pin 86 = +12 Volts when you want 30 to connect to 87 (signal wire)
Pin 30 = +12volts
Pin 87 = to the load (starter)


Yes, I did that, and the starter didn't turn, so that relay must be the one.

I took very careful note of the positions of the leads. Two of the connectors are different sizes, so there is little option where they go. The earth one is tiny, and it came from, and only fits on, the pin that is directly opposite 87 on the face of the relay. This doesn't seem to tie in with your numbering?
 
If you can get a relay identical to the one you have, go pin for pin.

If you have to use a relay with connectors all the same size, my pin numbering will work regardless whats in the relay box.

Not trying to complicate the issue, just trying to help.


Check out DIN85 and DIN86 in this list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_72552
 
Not trying to complicate the issue, just trying to help

Believe me, I'm really appreciative of your comments, and also those of everyone else who's chipped in. It's been incredibly helpful.

Although I found loads of used relays that were exactly the same as mine on Ebay, I wanted a new one, and eventually tracked one down at a VW site. I was offered a 40 amp one with all the same size pins at my local car bits shop, but I didn't fancy having to fit new connectors on all the leads.

I still don't understand why a relay listed as being for 'manifold heating' on a small range of VW cars should be where it is on my J5, though.
 
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