Straightening warped/twisted wood?

[perky416]

Hi guys,

So i was quoted £1600 for a set of bespoke solid oak french doors. I decided to have a go myself at making them to save money (the wood cost £350).

i have a fair bit of woodworking experience so im confident i can do them. The problem i have is the wood for the uprights is warped slightly.

One piece is bowed by about 4mm.
One piece is twisted by about 5mm.
One piece is twisted by about 3mm.
And one piece is twisted by about 1.5mm.

I always knew bowing would be a risk when purchasing real wood. The wood is custom cut to length and was ordered online, so i cant return it. And i dont really want to spend another couple of hundred on new wood.

I have clamped it to my workbench and it does straighten perfectly when clamped.

After a google search i tried the wet towel and iron method, which didnt work. Im guessing at 44mm x 110mm the wood is too thick for this method.

Now i have left the wood clamped flat, with a wet towel over it. Apparently this method can take a week to work.

Is it a realistic expectation to unwarp the wood?
Will the wrapping it in a damp towel and leaving it clamped method actually work?
Is there a better method?

thanks

 

[big-all]

over bend around 50% the other way
what assembly method are you using
keep in mind you will need the worst bits on the hinge side and 3 or 4 hinges to pull straight
remember brass or stainless steel fitting only

 

[perky416]

So if the bend is 5mm, do you mean bend 2.5mm the other way? Or 7.5mm?

Any advice on how id do this with a twisted piece of wood?

I will be joining using mortise and tenon joints. The doors will be shaker type doors, so each door will consist of an upright each side joined by 5 cross members equally spaced apart.

I was thinking x3 100mm brass hinges per door.

The bowing isnt so much of a problem, it is the twist. As i join the cross pieces to the upright, the twist will put the cross pieces out of alignment on the other side of the door.

Any ideas on how i could pull the twists into alignment?

thanks

 

[perky416]

Ive been thinking, the cross pieces should pull the twist out when connected to the opposing upright. The only question is, will a tenon 15mm thick x 40mm long be strong enough to hold 5mm of twist without breaking?

Alternatively if there is considerable risk that it wont be strong enough, could i not simply rout out a 10mm slot right through one upright, along the cross piece, and through the other upright, both top and bottom of the door, and glue a 10mm square metal bar in the slot finishing flush with the wood?

 

[Deleted member 174758]

The following is written based on the premise that you have bought timber which is machined dead to size and where there is no leeway to take the wind (twist) out by means of hand planes and winding sticks

Is it a realistic expectation to unwarp the wood

Seriously? No

Will the wrapping it in a damp towel and leaving it clamped method actually work?

No, and worse still it will raise the grain and probably cause/accelerate other issues such as cupping. When you steam bend timber you have to steam it for about 1 hour for every inch of thickness to make it pliable enough, so you can hopefully see why applying a damp rag is whisltling in the wind. In any case, you presumably bought nice 8 to 12% MC (moisture content) kiln dried timber and you are now proposing to soak it - that's not good!

Is there a better method?

Start with straight timber and use the stuff in wind for short and small section components such as glazing bars where you can deal with or hide the defects. In reality, either it shouldn't have been sent out (supplier at fault) or you have stored it incorrectly (your fault)

1. Had I been doing the job I'd have inspected the material the minute it arrived and if it wasn't flat and straight, I'd have sent it back immediately. It is impossible to correctly mark out and joint timber with wind (twist) in it. Bow and cup, providing they are very minor can be dealt with (you can plane them out by hand), but not wind.

2. Assuming the timber was straight and square, there was no wind and cup (across the grain) and bow (along the length) were containable I'd have cut to length and cut the joints immediately and assembled it as soon as possible (i.e. within 24 hours)

3. TBH I live in the Pennines where we have a rainfall more akin to living in a tropical rain forest, so I've learned NEVER to take on joinery jobs at home from about early October until late March (our really rainy season where the mushrooms round here have moss growing on them). Even so I never store any timber in my shed; if kiln dried stuff comes to me and I cannot use it immediately it always comes inside the house and is stored properly stickered in the living room (which as you can imagine makes me hugely popular ). Even then it is only for a couple of days at most, partly because I'm in fear of my life otherwise

Any advice on how id do this with a twisted piece of wood?

Again, you can't. In fact, if you think about it, the timber has been machined with stresses in it and how it has subsequently handled and stored has caused the stresses to put it in wind, etc. All you can do is replace it

The bowing isnt so much of a problem, it is the twist. As i join the cross pieces to the upright, the twist will put the cross pieces out of alignment on the other side of the door.

Any ideas on how i could pull the twists into alignment?

Again, you can't. Even if you could manage to untwist a piece which is in wind straight enough to get the door put together, the stresses still in the timber will often simply pull the door out of flat in due course. You need to replace the piece in wind with one which is straight. The only guaranteed thing you can ever do with material which is in wind is to cut it down to very short lengths and use it for short components, not frame elements. Sometimes, if the wind is only a couple of millimetres you can get away with it, but there is always the risk of the stresses in the timber causing the door to warp subsequently

Ive been thinking, the cross pieces should pull the twist out when connected to the opposing upright. The only question is, will a tenon 15mm thick x 40mm long be strong enough to hold 5mm of twist without breaking?

It won't break. but the joints won't pull up square

Alternatively if there is considerable risk that it wont be strong enough, could i not simply rout out a 10mm slot right through one upright, along the cross piece, and through the other upright, both top and bottom of the door, and glue a 10mm square metal bar in the slot finishing flush with the wood?

Or you could simply buy another straight piece of wood

You can faff around as much as you want, but a piece of timber in wind will always be in stress and will always pull a door frame out, if not to begin with, eventually. 44mm thick hardwood is not softwood studding or joisting. B-A, and is a darned sight stiffer and resistant to being twisted flat.

I have tried in the past to plane out wind from oak (on a jointer) only to find that when I thicknessed the timber it almost immediately went into wind again. Often I have been able to take out the wind by judicious surface planing, but that always needs to be done before the timber is thicknessed; it cannot be done afterwards without losing thickness. With 5mm of wind I'd expect to lose 6 to 7mm in the thickness to plane it flat and true

I'm afraid that some timber you just have to find other tasks for, such as making-up glazing beads which are small cross section and where you can control the stresses. That's why we talk about wastage factor in trade work. It's all part of the joy of working with wood because it is a natural material

 

[big-all]

if you are forming a oblong forces will start to even out sometimes so the twist on one side will try and twist the whole door and the likly effect is the twist will be contained more than it can twist the door
normally you would get an extra length and all the same rails left uncut so you can choose the straitest for the styles and cut the rails from the progressively moving timber keeping in mind a bent bit off timber can be bent at a small part but a lot
to be honest iff your talking 5 mm over 2m you wont make any difference what you do trying to remove the bow and quite possibly make it worse by wetting some areas
indeed the 5mm could be one face is holding more moisture so just turn it bow up on 2x20mm batons one at each end and perhaps 5kg in the middle

 

[perky416]

It won't break. but the joints won't pull up square

what if i clamp it flat to my work bench, so the joints are square, glue and release? Recon it will hold?

Or you could simply buy another straight piece of wood

heres the issue...buying more wood costs more money, i have to take another day off work to wait in for the delivery, and even then i still may have the same problem.

assuming i cant get more wood, and the above method wont hold...surely a 5mm twist wont be able to bent a 10mm square steel bar, even over time?

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I've already answered your questions based on having served my time as a carpenter and joiner back in the 1970s (so quite a bit of site and bench work over the years). But to reiterate - you aren't ever going to flatten a 44mm thick piece of something like oak by clamping it to a bench for a few days. You deal with wind the way I stated above. I also doubt in the extreme that your steel bar will be anywhere near strong enough - a steel bar can take the twist out of a wardrobe door, but those are just 18mm thick MDF, and so have all the stiffness of blotting paper! For that matter have you ever tried to swing a pair of doors, let alone a pair with more than a bit of a twist in them?

This story highlights what tradesmen repeatedly say about so many materials, namely they ideally shouldn't be bought over the 'net. Just where is your timber coming from, though, that you need to buy it this way and that they won't replace a defective product? I know in my own area that there aren't many hardwood suppliers, but within about 30 miles I can name maybe 15 or 20 timber merchants off the top of my head who supply hardwoods. A few of them will supply hardwoods ready-dressed, but most of them could either put me onto someone who can size and dimension for me, or who would be able to send it out and get it done for me (generally to a local customer). And they wouldn't expect to send me a twisted length without there being some very negative "in yer face" type feedback.

As an aside - cut to length? Door stiles need to be initially sized over length if you are using mortise and tenon joints leaving four horns on the completed door. The horns protect the door during handling and finishing and are cut off with a hand saw before installation, but critically they put extra strength into the ends of the stiles when you are chopping out the mortises and when you assemble the fox-wedged joints. Without them it is not unknown for the end grain to burst either when chiselling or when hammering in the wedges

So time to fess up - did actually you get the stuff and store it (badly?) for a few months?

 

[big-all]

"
what if i clamp it flat to my work bench, so the joints are square, glue and release? Recon it will hold?"
who knows the stresses are still within the timbers trying to move the wood
the best solution is work with the "free wood" as a free floating structure with clamps holding fully side to side
holding flat in general wont work as the stresses trying to lift an edge or corner need to be counteracted
this can be achieved by clamping together then blocking against the twist in a reverse action in a corner to over twist when it relaxes will be hopefully relax back to flat
but the main action is get it parallel and square then force a counter twist against the wind[twist] about 50% -150% against so when it relaxes its flat
this all comes from experience judging the situation and a hunch
yes it can still go a bit to very wrong and even change with time but experience means 10-15% more wood than required not cut to any lengths but plan and cut as you go gives you the best average result rather than the " i will defy years off experience route to save money" as you have found you have close to zero chance to adapt and alter to timber you have as you have no juggling out the worst bits
i hope in future the extra 20% timber will save you effort time and give you enough material for a perhaps window box or planter or whatever your heart desires

 

[big-all]

just to further inform you tend not to overtwist more than 25-50% more on glued as glue and interactions with the compressed wood and glue filling the gap means a stable platform is obtained where as over twisting on pure timber has no input from fillers or holding by glue
you also have the ability to back twist and relax the plank if overdone

 

[perky416]

I've already answered your questions

Ok mate, youre one of them guys are you?
That was a different question based on your answer suggesting the only issue with what i said is the squaring of the joints. I didnt ask if i can flatten it by clamping it to a bench for a few days, i asked if i can clamp it square in order to get it assembled and the joints glued, will it hold after releasing the clamps? I.e it will be the joints holding it square. See...different question.

I also doubt in the extreme your steel bar will be anywhere near strong enough

Ever tried it? Ever worked with high carbon content steel? Youre really telling me that a bit of twist that i can square up with a plastic hand clamp is going to bend 10mm steel? I suspect its an unconventional out of the box type solution thats not your way...so its the highway.

ideally shouldn't be bought over the 'net

No kidding. I would have loved to have gone to a timber yard and inspected the pieces for myself, but i couldnt find anywhere local that sells 44mm thick oak, and those that were a reasonable ish distance were charging £100 per length. Could have, should have, would have...it doesnt solve the problem does it?

I received the wood monday, yet even if i had stored it badly for a few months, doesnt solve the problem does it? You quite clearly just want to argue. Your posts display overwhelming arrogance and are far from helpful. Please dont reply again (although i know you will, because you want to argue).

big-all, thanks for the info.

 

[foxhole]

Seems you purchased a lot of firewood.

 

[big-all]

Ok mate, youre one of them guys are you?
That was a different question based on your answer suggesting the only issue with what i said is the squaring of the joints. I didnt ask if i can flatten it by clamping it to a bench for a few days, i asked if i can clamp it square in order to get it assembled and the joints glued, will it hold after releasing the clamps? I.e it will be the joints holding it square. See...different question.




Ever tried it? Ever worked with high carbon content steel? Youre really telling me that a bit of twist that i can square up with a plastic hand clamp is going to bend 10mm steel? I suspect its an unconventional out of the box type solution thats not your way...so its the highway.



No kidding. I would have loved to have gone to a timber yard and inspected the pieces for myself, but i couldnt find anywhere local that sells 44mm thick oak, and those that were a reasonable ish distance were charging £100 per length. Could have, should have, would have...it doesnt solve the problem does it?

I received the wood monday, yet even if i had stored it badly for a few months, doesnt solve the problem does it? You quite clearly just want to argue. Your posts display overwhelming arrogance and are far from helpful. Please dont reply again (although i know you will, because you want to argue).

big-all, thanks for the info.

general comments here
j&K is a very knowledgable chap he is a trade chippy off high standars he does refits from high quality oak panelled big houses to mundane high street and shops he is probably [is]a better bench joiner than i will ever be
he is honest and helpful and very open
he won't deliberately try to be other than fully helpful and seldom if ever judgmental
usually when making a door you start with rough cut timber and plane 51=76mm timber flat then thickness to 44x69mm then with a full size hand drawn rod [accurate plan] you mark and work and usually assemble within a day to avoid the wood having time to move
we have all gone home to find boomerangs in the morning

the route you have taken needs slack in the system to allow for movement as in order 20% extra for juggling timber by choosing as i said above stratest for lock styles then hinge then rails with the worst a second non connected use

without spare you have to work with what you have do your best and if the results are satisfactory then you can use them
if the results are a bit out to start they may be fine but may get worse with age we simply dont know

 

[mrrusty]

It's not particularly helpful to you, but it is certainly possible to DIY make doors, but I wouldn't personally attempt it in oak for the reasons you have discovered. Next time try Accoya. It's about the same price as oak, but as a chemically modified softwood, it is very stable and fairly easy to work. The good thing as far as I am concerned is that the rough-sawn planks are near enough perfectly straight when I get them from Arnold Laver and easy to process into appropriate sections. It's a near-perfect material for exterior joinery IMHO. Here's my latest project, (now glazed and painted) https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/doors-and-windows.584177/

 

[perky416]

Just to follow up on this thread for others that were in my situation and need help...

So the doors were made last year, i clamped the warped/twisted wood flat to my workbench, assembled and glued the pieces together. I then routed out a 10mm slot along the top and bottom edges of the doors and using gorilla glue, i secured a length of 10mm square stainless steel bar in the slot, about 80% of the width of the door.

1 year later the doors are still fine, so it appears to have worked.