Stuck between a rock and a hard place

[chojin360]

Hiya chaps

i have just spent the last 20 mins reading the first 10 pages of this forum and i still can decide what to do

we moved house in Dec 2007 and we have found out that the wiring is shot at and needs to be renewed ( as well as the CU - its the old black thing with 3 fuses )

the wires are rubber covered - so all these will need to be replaced

we have found this out by removing the front of a plug socket to be presented with a snapped earth lead and a live that was half burnt thru

the thing is ( and the reason for this post is )

1 - its obvious that the wiring is seriously out of date
2 - i would like a new consumer unit

now here is where im stuck

1 - i have just had a quote of £2.2k for a rewire and new CU
2 - i cant afford £2.2K or magic it up from anywhere
3 - i cant get the CU changed as the wiring is old and it needs a rewire
4 - i cant get a rewire as the CU is old and needs a new one
5 - i cant afford the £2.2k to fix it all ( this bit is important so i mentioned it a few times )

so what do i do ???

any ideas are GREATLY welcomed !

it has been suggested that my dad and my self rewire it ( my dad has rewired a house before and has no probs with electricity and has a good understanding of how it all works - he also checks everything with a meter once the power is off just to confirm )

but im assume this breaches all the part p and 17th edition stuff

or do i just leave it all as it is and hope the house dosnt burn down ???

big thanks

Stu

the house is a circa. early 1960 , its a dorma bungalow with 3 rooms upstairs ( each room has one plug socket ) and 6 rooms downstairs ( to include the hall way )

pics of old and dodgy wired fuse box can be supplied

 

[jason1958]

Option-1
- pay for BC notification
- do all entirely yourself *1 including the CU
- agents of BCO inspect (beware some want to you pay for I&T)

*1 with help from relative + buy copy of 17th OnSiteGuide + buy good 17th Electricians Guide

Option-2
- do all entirely yourself *1 including the CU
- apply for Regularisation later paying original fee & penalty

Problem - the BCO may want to see the route of cables you covered up & correct anything. This is not technically permitted - it is failure to notify.

Option-3
- do all entirely yourself *1 including the CU
- apply for Regulatrisation at house sale, hope BCO will accept a PIR
- pay £50-100 for imdemnity insurance re no completion certificate


At present it sounds a common, rather unsafe, 1930-1970 installation.
You may find more problems as you progress further into it, beware.

So there is an Option-4

Option-4
- As option-1 except you do very little under BCO control
- You fit the CU, fully wire kitchen & bathroom
- You do not do wiring elsewhere except for 1st-socket, 1st-light

That might reduce the BCO fee because the fee is charged at "market rates". You are then legally free to extend the non-special location etc as you wish under YOUR timescale. Realise a rewire is a lot of effort & takes time (there is a time limit under Part P system).

If you did go for anything-but-BCO-inspects, which would be illegal, then I would strongly suggest you a) pay a spark for a PIR checkover (he will not certify someone elses work remember!) so you know it is safe or b) hire the full inspection & testing gear and buy GN3 (Guidance Note 3) on how to use it - but realise you really need C&G 2391+ to know how to interpret results. Eg, sticking 500V insulation test across a mains smoke alarm will kill both that alarm and any others connected to it, same with many "spot-lighting" power supplies, burglar alarms and so on.

Key thing is a) do not cowboy it and b) do not use a cowboy.
Part P has one *huge* benefit - it gives a FANTASTIC tool to hit rogue traders with. Just do not become one with bad DIY, if you do not know how to do something a) ask here b) ask a spark to design on paper at least (he will not certify under Part P because he did not design/install/test).

Quick post, so may be a bit garbled

 

[aptsys]

Option-2
- do all entirely yourself *1 including the CU
- apply for Regularisation later paying original fee & penalty

Oddly, with my local BC, the cost for regularisation is less than the cost for the standard notification procedure.

 

[chojin360]

thanks for the reply

i just need to work out all your cryptic clues ( BC, BCO , PIR etc.. )

im not looking to sell the house for the next 50 yrs ( when i die ) - its a nice 4 bed house in a nice area and we already have 2 kids and no more are planned ! - so the house sale is out the question

i must admit i like option 3

to be honest i would love to pay the sparky to do it - but £2.2k does seem rather steep and thats not doing any replastering and i offered to take a week off work to help move all the furniture and pull up the floor boards etc...

whilst im on this thread is there a good place to start all this ??

1 - replace the wires first and then replace the CU
2 - replace the CU first and then rewire
3 - leave current CU and wire and rewire the lighting circuit
4 - other options that i cant think of
5 - add all the earth binding first then think of a good place to start

i cant find a starting point - im worred that changing the CU first will cause it to trip out a lot because of the bad wiring or do i change all the sockets/light first - although im not 100% what is wired into what - or do i add the earth bonding first ??

what we did find is it looks like the shower , garage and the now removed immersion heater are all wired into a seperate 45a switch - personally this worries me ( it might have the oven in there aswell - we arent sure )

we seem to have a load of wires and only an old 3 fuse fuse box ( and this seperate 45a one )

to be honest - it does look a right mess - but i suppose this is what happens over the years

Stu

 

[stem]

It's a bit like asking. The brakes have worn out on my car, I can't afford to fix it, should I continue to drive it on public roads?

You and your family stand the risk of death by fire or electric shock. you know the answer, it needs to be replaced.

When you purchased the house, did the survey reveal that it needed re-wiring? If not you may have a claim on the surveyor. I managed to do that on something that was missed on mine. (not electrical)

If you can't do this because it was highlighted in the survey you may be able to add the cost of the rewire to your mortgage, it shouldn't make much of a difference to your monthly payment. Although you will end up paying considerably more in the long run if you have a long mortgage.

 

[chojin360]

there was nothing on the survey about it to be honest - because i borrowed a small-ish amount relevant to the house - they were just concerned about it still being stood

and it wasnt a full survey - just a basic one

the house was on the market for a while so it didnt have a HIP pack ( which would have highlighted this )

i dont think i can add it to the mortgage as im fixed for 2 yrs - so although a good suggestion - its not doable

and its a 25yr mortgage - so yeah i might end up paying about 6K for it in the long run

and i cant magic money out of thin air

nothing is simple in this life is it

 

[hi1]

You wouldn't have got this picked up as part of the HIP process as the home condition report part isn't compulsory, yet. Even if it were the inspection is purely visual and would need to recommend the electrical services being further investigated by a qualified person.
You at present represent the tip of the iceberg regarding people who are assest rich, their house is worth alot, but don't have the cash to maintain it. If you read the pages of this forum there are people out there who are trying to save cash doing stuff with gas and electrics who would be better served, and safe, getting a professional in.
If you need the money then try the bank for an unsecured loan.
I see you have 4 bedrooms, rent one out to a lodger, you can get £5000+ a year tax free by doing so, pay off the loan, wave the lodger goodbye.
regards

 

[Cremeegg]

You bought a house without a full survey and are now seeing why if you know nothing about one or more of the items that are covered in a full survey you should get one.

The consumer unit is the heart of the sytem - it needs to be changed with all the wiring. For an installation of this age its unlikely that you could change one without the other showing up several defects. If you knew anything about testing that would be self evident.

To say buy a meter and a book or two is nonsense and potentially very dangerous; learning how to test and know what the results mean takes experience.

As a very rough guide the price you have looks fair - maybe even very cheap depending on what you specified to go in.

You tried to save money and have got caught out. Caveat emptor.

 

[skenk]

Your first step in doing the work would be to lay all the cables and fit the back-boxes for accessories (first fix). You really need to know the regs to do this - cable bending radii, current carrying capacities, safe zones, grommits, sleeving etc etc as well as some knowledge of circuit design.

If you're lucky you might find a spark who will inspect your first fixing (before replastering/filling chases/replacing floorboards so they can see the cable routing and installation methods) and then come back and do the full inspection and test when you're finished the work.

Just leave the old wiring well alone until the new stuff is ready to connect, then you won't be without power when you're doing the work - just watch out for the old cables when you're fitting the new. You won't be able to sort out the decoration though until the new system is energised and you've removed the old accessories and any other visible remnants of the old installation.

Judging by what you've said you cannot just do the CU or wiring as both are inadequate and need replaced.

 

[mattylad]

See if you can find yourself a local electrician who will help advise you.
He may not be able to certify etc but you should be able to get some good specific advise on what you do & what you need.

ANd to t'others, whats "regularisation" involve??

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Oddly, with my local BC, the cost for regularisation is less than the cost for the standard notification procedure.

The regularisation charge shall be 20% greater than the building notice charge.

 

[Adam_151]

ANd to t'others, whats "regularisation" involve??

Its down to the BCO in question a lot of the time,

Basically, when building works have not been notified and a regularisation notice is submited to get it notified at a later date, its up to the BCO to satisfy himself that the work complies to the building regs, usually this involves minor destruction, eg plaster chipped off to check lintels, etc. In the case of electrical work, I beleive the recommended route is to get a PIR commissioned by a competant electrician, however this is just guidance and the BCO might decide to go further than this, they could insist that floors and walls are opened as well, to check cable routing (normally a limitation for PIRs on the most part)

 

[oharaf]

Chojin360, my heart goes out to you, when we moved into our gaff we discovered the electrics were deadly, we had a full survey, spoke to the solicitor and he basically said not to push it.

It was this exact situation that made me go and get qualified, I re-wired the place with some help from my brother (a sparky).

Your quote of £2.2k seems fair to me, but then again I don't know the property or your requirements.

If you wish to post details of number of rooms and total number of sockets and lights etc that you want I could tell you if his quote is in the right ball park.

I really am feeling for you here, and if there is any assistance I can give just ask.

Where in Lancs?

 

[000ps]

If you didn't notice the bad state of the electrical installation when you bought the place, then i very much doubt your competent to rewire it.

At £2.2K i would snap the electricians arm off, get a loan, beg, get a 2nd job, take in a lodger, sell the car, send the wife out to work, sell the Rembrandt...

Dare i ask what condition the boiler is in??????????

 

[ban-all-sheds]

....send the wife out to work...Dare i ask what condition the boiler is in??????????

That's not very nice...