Suprima - Expert Witness Statements Requested

[jeffuk]

Whatever you may think of Watchdog or its presenter the fact remains that they have succeeded in getting a better deal for many people who were not happy with the reliability of their Suprima.

Where that argument breaks down is that of say 200,000 Suprimas sold only 1000 contacted the BBC and one could say that apparently 199,000 owners were happy with their boiler.

As to Jeff, I would disagree with him that his boiler has broken down more often than might be expected. One fault every 2-3 years is not that bad for a highly stressed machine like a boiler.

Although he does not seem to agree I think he will have to demonstrate that the Suprima was a poor design with latent faults which the manufacturers did not address in a timely manner.

I dont think he will win but might achieve an out of court settlement to avoid the publicity.

Tony


PS I have never seen a Watchdog program.

What rubbish.

1. How on earth do you conclude that every person that didn't contact Watchdog should be assumed to be satisfied?

2. Where did I state that how often my boiler had broken down? I commented on how many PCB's had been replaced NOT how often it had broken down.

 

[EliteHeat]

What rubbish.

1. How on earth do you conclude that every person that didn't contact Watchdog should be assumed to be satisfied?

2. Where did I state that how often my boiler had broken down? I commented on how many PCB's had been replaced NOT how often it had broken down.

Which branch of the diplomatic corps are you with again?

 

[Gasguru]

One fault every 2-3 years is not that bad for a highly stressed machine like a boiler.

I think thats an appalling failure rate and I wouldn't say a boiler is particulalry highly stressed environment.

Compare that to vehicle electronics. Would you accept that failure on your ABS system. How about the engine management unit packing up every few years. These modules have to work in a far more hostile environment perhaps from -20 to +60 Centigrade. Coping with condensation/water ingress. Switching highly inductive loads. Think of the shock loads driving over speed bumps/potholes.

Boiler pcbs from several manufactures are designed to fail early in order to generate revenue. When you build boilers with as many design faults as Baxi you have to generate the revenue from somewhere since your losing so much income on warranty callouts.

 

[baxpoti]

Where that argument breaks down is that of say 200,000 Suprimas sold

Try nearer 1,000,000 (1 million) Suprimas have been sold!!

 

[simond]

It is true the Suprima is known for the PCB failing. On the 120 model, we have come across at least 2 new BaxiPot boards (of the enhanced design)with faults on the FFD loom. So even some of the new PCB kits are duff.

However, most boilers have an achilles heel somewhere. Vaillant had problems with diverters, APS. Worcester have had issues with fans and PCBs. Alpha have had diverter problems, Ferroli have had problems with most bits, Ideal responses sometimes never work properly and Kestons..... well need I go on?

Many Suprimas, as mentioned earlier in this thread, have been installed without bypasses, are labouring on an old pump, have undersized pipework etc. Some of the trade just change the PCB every time, leaving the original problem to manifest itself again.

In the interests of fairness to the small claims court, having read my post, I am sure you will mention the large number of installation defects we in the trade find and how they have sometimes been found to be contributory to the Suprima PCB being changed out.

I am sure you wouldn't want the Magistrate to be unfairly influenced by sensationalist TV reporting from an allegedly impartial company using premium rate phone numbers.

PS: If you have a failure rate of 1000 out of 1,000,000 then that is 0.1%. Better put that in your evidence too.

 

[JohnD]

I don't know either, but you can't get an accurate fault percentage by counting the people who complain to the BBC. An unknown number of people will have a fault and not call them.

You would get a better figure by finding out how many replacement parts are sold or replaced under warranty. The manufacturer will know both these figures but may be ashamed to divulge them.

Or (if you could get them) the stats from a large company that maintains large numbers of boilers under contacts, so knows how many it has on the books, and how many go wrong. If you compare one type of boiler to another, this will tend to show variations due to boiler type, since there will tend to be similar proportions of old or dirty systems or incompetent local repairers, or other causes unrelated to boiler type.

 

[gazthepottertonengineer]

Personally think you are wasting your time ! but if you do take it further i hope you can prove the boiler has been installed correctly and serviced annually

as approx 70 % of the Watchdog jobs i goto cannot prove service history and boiler normally has one or two installation faults i.e no ventilation,pump not wired back to boiler,no bypass etc etc

oh and we still fix them free of charge though

 

[nickso]

not being funny but did potterton ever give a good reason for not having a service history or installed correctly being a contributory factor to a high pcb failure rate?

serious question with absolutely no sarcasm at all. just want to know what possible difference they think it could have made.

 

[Vic Spanner]

Boiler pcbs from several manufactures are designed to fail early in order to generate revenue. When you build boilers with as many design faults as Baxi you have to generate the revenue from somewhere since your losing so much income on warranty callouts.

You will probably **** your self laughing but they take warranty breakdowns very seriously now, Component manufactures are now tied into financial compensation packages if there parts are proven faulty.
The warranty rate for boilers failing in the first year is no down in the very low single figures and a lot of them are installation faults.
If they where to dump the alloy range it would go down even further.

Right now you can shoot me

 

[gazthepottertonengineer]

not being funny but did potterton ever give a good reason for not having a service history or installed correctly being a contributory factor to a high pcb failure rate?

serious question with absolutely no sarcasm at all. just want to know what possible difference they think it could have made.

dont think there was any specific statemant but if the boiler is in a cupbard without ventilation then the obviously the pcb will get too hot and fry circuits

and also alot of the jobs i goto are locking on overheat normally due to pump not wired back to boiler or no bypass

and its important to service the boiler to check gas pressures spark electrode gap etc to reduce the chances of nuisance lockouts

i bet that not all 3 of those new pcbs were actually needed at all but like all of us we get blinded and go in with our blinkers on and say "oh must be the pcb"

 

[gazthepottertonengineer]

One fault every 2-3 years is not that bad for a highly stressed machine like a boiler.

I think thats an appalling failure rate and I wouldn't say a boiler is particulalry highly stressed environment.


Boiler pcbs from several manufactures are designed to fail early in order to generate revenue. When you build boilers with as many design faults as Baxi you have to generate the revenue from somewhere since your losing so much income on warranty callouts.

actually Guru Warranty call outs have dropped by nearly 20 % in the last 5 years !

 

[baxpoti]

a high pcb failure rate?

0.1% What is a low failure rate?

just want to know what possible difference they think it could have made.

In MY opinion the failure is caused by overheating... caused by.... not being installed to M.I. e.g. no cooling ventilation, no pump overrun, no by-pass, undersized flow and returns (35mm req'd on the 120) etc etc.

I went to one of the Barratt sites featured on Watchdog, approx 50-60 houses. 2 Pcbs have been replaced on that site following the programme and that includes the family interviewed.

 

[John Wayne]

Hows tricks Gaz dont hear much of you of late.
Have you meet your new fsm yet

 

[gazthepottertonengineer]

Good thanx mate Yes seems ok early days yet so jurys still out
ex BG guy so at least he knows his stuff unlike the other muppett

 

[nickso]

not being funny but did potterton ever give a good reason for not having a service history or installed correctly being a contributory factor to a high pcb failure rate?

serious question with absolutely no sarcasm at all. just want to know what possible difference they think it could have made.

dont think there was any specific statemant but if the boiler is in a cupbard without ventilation then the obviously the pcb will get too hot and fry circuits

inadequate ventilation is a possible cause yet i have changed a high number of pcb's on suprimas in and out of cupboards. no other manufacturer seems to have similar problems that i can think of that would readily be attributed to ventilation.

and also alot of the jobs i goto are locking on overheat normally due to pump not wired back to boiler or no bypass

but you are not saying that this causes the pcb to go faulty. you are saying that these are misdiagnosed as a faulty pcb, yes?

and its important to service the boiler to check gas pressures spark electrode gap etc to reduce the chances of nuisance lockouts

ive seen hundreds of them and only found one faulty electrode and a few at the wrong setting. certainly worth checking though.

i bet that not all 3 of those new pcbs were actually needed at all but like all of us we get blinded and go in with our blinkers on and say "oh must be the pcb"

and yet in the majority of my cases it has indeed been the pcb at fault. and ive had several that have had 3+ pcb's. not all for the same fault i will admit in some cases.

0.1% What is a low failure rate?

where did you come across this figure? surely not from the above post by simond which we cant really rely on as it is purely based on the watchdog figures, which the OP has already pointed out cant be correct as they are based on the amount of people who phoned that programme ,not the amount of actual breakdowns. it would be impossible to guess the actual figure but i think we can safely assume it is far higher than that.

In MY opinion the failure is caused by overheating... caused by.... not being installed to M.I. e.g. no cooling ventilation, no pump overrun, no by-pass, undersized flow and returns (35mm req'd on the 120) etc etc.

so in your opinion does the pcb not being wired correctly, or no bypass, or undersized flow and returns, or a combination of all the above, directly cause the failure of the pcb? poor ventilation i can accept, but with the rest i cant see any correlation. are you also saying they have been misdiagnosed or are you saying that the overheating of the boiler subsequently overheats the pcb? in that case surely the boiler casing is inadequately insulated against overheat. another part of poor design possibly?

I went to one of the Barratt sites featured on Watchdog, approx 50-60 houses. 2 Pcbs have been replaced on that site following the programme and that includes the family interviewed.

i personally must have replaced close on 150 in my area in housing estates that also all have suprimas. many houses have had repeat visits for the same problem. to my knowledge i have misdiagosed twice. one was the gas valve and the other was an intermittant thermistor.

for all your arguments which may or may not be correct the suprima does indeed have an issue with the pcb. other models/manufacturers do not, even though they may suffer from the same potentially poor installations in some cases.

incidentally the latest pcb is very reliable i think. the only problem i tend to have with it is the pcb believing its up to temp when its not. its quite a rare fault though.