Switch System

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Hi guys

Im having a new rewire done, what are the pros and cons of a Switch System where both neutral and live are behind the light switch.
I know I found it difficult to install and service my smart switches in my old house.
Is a 35mm back box sufficient to contain all the wiring plus the switch plus any separate smart switches or would I need a deeper back box?
How realistic is this in solid brick walls?
Thanks in advance.
 
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Hi guys

Im having a new rewire done, what are the pros and cons of a Switch System where both neutral and live are behind the light switch.
It's not a question of pros and cons; it depends what you need or want.

I know I found it difficult to install and service my smart switches in my old house.
There you go.

Is a 35mm back box sufficient to contain all the wiring plus the switch plus any separate smart switches or would I need a deeper back box?
Probably - unless you need deeper.

How realistic is this in solid brick walls?
No problem.


How long is this piece if string?
 
With the switch back box used as a junction box one uses more cable, so not such a good loop impedance, and you lack a permanent line at the lights for emergency lights and fans etc. But it also allows the home to be wired side to side easier, so there is a more even draw on each circuit.

As to neutral at the switch using triple and earth drops instead of twin and earth one can select to use third wire as either neutral or for two way switching in the future.

The ceiling rose is designed to run the supply rose to rose, but when we use lamps designed for other countries often these don't have the terminals required, I used a plug in ceiling rose, so changing a chandelier is wired on the ground, Ceiling rose.jpg then simply plugged in. No holding a lamp up in the air while wiring it, so I never have reason to open the base of ceiling rose. As to electronic switches, the dimmer switch can't adjust colour any more, dimming a tungsten bulb also produced a red glow, not so with LED, so using smart bulbs works better allowing the colour to also be changed so giving a better ambiance. Using however a 8 bulb chandelier this gets expensive, 20220415_000328_1.jpg but the whole reason for it is to get the light required in a large room, so don't really want to dim, so use a simple on/off smart switch battery powered so does not need a neutral (TP-Link/Tapo) in other rooms I have used Energenie/MiHome switches which pass a small current through the bulb when off, have had a shimmer and bulb glowing when switched off, and of 5 fitted 3 have failed in 8 years, so have been moving over, but the new switches only a year old, so time will tell.

The problem with many smart switches is they use a single line in even with two or more line outs, this can cause problems where different switches on the plate have different supplies, I have one 4 gang switch with three supplies, two at 230 volt and one extra low voltage, so can't be grouped together.

Smart switching can be three main locations, in the bulb, in the lamp (smart relay) and in the switch, I have all three, this lamp lamp-landing_1.jpgused a smart relay inside the lamp so I can select either centre or outer bulbs, the centre one is colour changing smart bulb, at rewire stage there is nothing stopping one from having multi-lamps in a room independently switched seen it first in Turkey, where they use CFL well before us, tungsten produces too much heat, and you could not dim CFL bulbs, so they split the lights 1/3 and 2/3 so one has three levels of lighting, be it wall lights or ceiling lights, one can arrange the lights so it does not look as if bulbs have blown, I have had to work with what I have, no where near rewire stage, so used cabinet lights to supplement living room lighting. When turned up full 20230227_163006_2.jpg there is around 60 watt of lighting there, but normally turned down 20230227_170703_1.jpg and set to some colour to enhance the display.

I am trying to give ideas in action, there is no right or wrong, the electronic lighting has turned the whole lighting systems upside down, we used a push button to turn lights on/off in dinning room converted into sick bedroom, so lights could be turned on/off in the bed, but found voice control with google Nest Mini speakers worked better, so button is now a door bell push.

We wanted all lights controller at the door, so on leaving room we can turn them all off together, however again voice command control has removed that problem, we simple say hey google turn off living room lights. And at 72 I have been know to dose off watching day time TV which has timed out, meaning I wake up in total darkness, with cat toys everywhere, hey google turn on lights is a live saver, I would have not dreamed of this 5 years ago.
 
My regs books are quite a distance away but IIRC the spark doing the rewire has to consider having a neutral at the switches.

I prefer looping at switches as it makes all the connections readily accessible and easier is isolate sections when faults occur

35 mm back boxes for switches is a must imho, often 44mm with multiple switches
 
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With the switch back box used as a junction box one uses more cable, so not such a good loop impedance, and you lack a permanent line at the lights for emergency lights and fans etc. But it also allows the home to be wired side to side easier, so there is a more even draw on each circuit.

As to neutral at the switch using triple and earth drops instead of twin and earth one can select to use third wire as either neutral or for two way switching in the future.

The ceiling rose is designed to run the supply rose to rose, but when we use lamps designed for other countries often these don't have the terminals required, I used a plug in ceiling rose, so changing a chandelier is wired on the ground, View attachment 336370 then simply plugged in. No holding a lamp up in the air while wiring it, so I never have reason to open the base of ceiling rose. As to electronic switches, the dimmer switch can't adjust colour any more, dimming a tungsten bulb also produced a red glow, not so with LED, so using smart bulbs works better allowing the colour to also be changed so giving a better ambiance. Using however a 8 bulb chandelier this gets expensive, View attachment 336373 but the whole reason for it is to get the light required in a large room, so don't really want to dim, so use a simple on/off smart switch battery powered so does not need a neutral (TP-Link/Tapo) in other rooms I have used Energenie/MiHome switches which pass a small current through the bulb when off, have had a shimmer and bulb glowing when switched off, and of 5 fitted 3 have failed in 8 years, so have been moving over, but the new switches only a year old, so time will tell.

The problem with many smart switches is they use a single line in even with two or more line outs, this can cause problems where different switches on the plate have different supplies, I have one 4 gang switch with three supplies, two at 230 volt and one extra low voltage, so can't be grouped together.

Smart switching can be three main locations, in the bulb, in the lamp (smart relay) and in the switch, I have all three, this lamp View attachment 336377used a smart relay inside the lamp so I can select either centre or outer bulbs, the centre one is colour changing smart bulb, at rewire stage there is nothing stopping one from having multi-lamps in a room independently switched seen it first in Turkey, where they use CFL well before us, tungsten produces too much heat, and you could not dim CFL bulbs, so they split the lights 1/3 and 2/3 so one has three levels of lighting, be it wall lights or ceiling lights, one can arrange the lights so it does not look as if bulbs have blown, I have had to work with what I have, no where near rewire stage, so used cabinet lights to supplement living room lighting. When turned up full View attachment 336378 there is around 60 watt of lighting there, but normally turned down View attachment 336379 and set to some colour to enhance the display.

I am trying to give ideas in action, there is no right or wrong, the electronic lighting has turned the whole lighting systems upside down, we used a push button to turn lights on/off in dinning room converted into sick bedroom, so lights could be turned on/off in the bed, but found voice control with google Nest Mini speakers worked better, so button is now a door bell push.

We wanted all lights controller at the door, so on leaving room we can turn them all off together, however again voice command control has removed that problem, we simple say hey google turn off living room lights. And at 72 I have been know to dose off watching day time TV which has timed out, meaning I wake up in total darkness, with cat toys everywhere, hey google turn on lights is a live saver, I would have not dreamed of this 5 years ago.
A very well thought out answer.
Many thanks

My smart switch requiring neutral problem could indeed be solved if I sent down 3 core and earth from the ceiling rose instead of the standard twin and earth.

Being able to extend other lights and fans from a ceiling rose seems more important to me. I know I've definitely done this before.

And its a pretty significant con if im going to need more wire with a switch system and i presume thicker conduit to carry it and therefore more chasing.

Thanks again
 
The against the ceiling rose being used as a junction box is down to AC and balanced circuits. At higher frequencies we need to run the feed and return as a set distance apart to stop losses with inductive and capacitive linking, it is rather complex, did do it to get my radio licence, but at 50 Hz it is not really a problem. One can with two way switching and small LED bulbs get the bulb staying on dim. but needs to be a very long switch run to get that. At 50 kHz maybe a problem, but not at 50 Hz and size of most homes.

I now use TP-link smart switches that use an AA cell to power switch, so the contacts are volt free, like any non smart switch, so it can switch an outside lamp with a PIR built in without a problem. Even switch extra low voltage.

To my mind the problem is every smart system seems to use its own hub to reduce power required to work direct with a router, so swap makes and one ends up with yet again another hub.
 
I haven't got the latest ones but I wouldn't think they say anything about it being compulsory to have the supply at the switch; It certainly is nothing to do with safety.

Useful admission. That explains some of your dubious advice
 

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