What about a 15 amp socket ( non fused plugs) behind the appliance provided there is a fuse ( FCU ) in the feed to the 15 amp socket ?
What about a 15 amp socket ( non fused plugs) behind the appliance provided there is a fuse ( FCU ) in the feed to the 15 amp socket ?
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Indeed. I said that the grid switch arrangement described by johnsville was 'essentially' the arrangement I have in my kitchen. What you now describe is more-or-less exactly the arrangement I have.
I do have some ('silly') reservations about the appliances being hard-wired (no plugs), and am not sure I would be comfortable suggesting that for anyone else (e.g. silly though it may be, I wonder if it might contravene some manufacturer's instructions, and thereby be used as an excuse for invalidating a warranty). In that respect, bernardgreen's suggestion about using unfused (15A) plugs might be better - although even that might be said to invalidate a warranty if it specifically mentioned fused BS1362 plugs!
However, in common sense and engineering terms, I'm very happy with the arrangement I have in my kitchen.
Kind Regards, John.
J
johnsville
How can it? Look at the instructions. They never state what the electrical connection is. Only that it must meet current regs, etc. Direct wiring of integrated appliances is common.
Having the DP switch and fuse in a grid switch is doing the same thing as a plug top, only moving the fuse and switch to an accessible location. A maker would be trounced in court if they would not honour a guarantee because the plug was cut off and it was hard wired to a connection block. If you play around with the innards of the appliance then you may be in trouble.
As controlling the tight wiring in a grid switch, use flexible stranded wire and ti-wraps. I saw one grid switch fitted in the panel of a duct. Behind the grid switch was totally open with the flexible wires running into 100mm x 50mm plastic trunking in the duct. The whole grid could be lifted forwards for access on the long flexible wires. Very simple and neat.
J
johnsville
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H
holmslaw
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In a sane world, there would obiously be no issue. However, some instructions certainly say that the appliance in question should be supplied via a a BS1362 plug fitted with a specified size of fuse. There is seemingly no limit to how much wriggling some companies will do in attempts to get out of liability for warranty and insurance claims, and invoking the fact that the instructions have not been followed to the letter is a common ploy. As you say, one hopes that a court would see that as nonsense, but (not the least because of hassle and cost) such matters very rarely get to the courts.
Having said all that, as I said before, I've happily hard-wired the appliances in my kitchen.
Kind Regards, John.
There is no need for the FCUs. Have a fuse module after the DP grid switch (located next to it) and remove the fuse plug on the appliance wiring directly. Fuses behind integrated appliances is a dumb idea. All isolation and fusing can be on the grid switch panel.
Right, maybe I should have made this clearer.
There's 5 x f/spurs (the single socket for the washer is via plug not f/spur).
Hood- f/ spur is adjacent to the hood, at height- so the grid switch is for simple easy access isolation. As MI's require.
Wall fan- f/ spur is adjacent to the fan, at height- so the grid switch is for simple easy access isolation. As MI's require.
The 2 x oven and 1 x hob are hardwired direct to f/spurs, the 3 x f.spurs are located inside a floor base cabinet with reasonable access. The f/spurs (again) are per MI requirements. The reason the circuits are taken to the grid was simply for better isolation should any of the appliances have issue and need quick isolation.
Yes I could have done away with the seperate f/spurs and added the in to the grid, But I didn't want a 9w grid in a small kitchen with 6 switches and 3 f/spur modules.
As for sockets behind appliances in inaccessable locations, well that's just fool hardy and even if acceptable to some (it's not !) simply means hassle when / if a plug fuse fails.
As I've said, I do avoid this in my kitchen but I have to say that (provided there is an accessible means of isolation, such as grid switches), I don't really think that the fuses in plugs behind appliances is really as much of an issue as many people seem to think ....
....although I realise that 'random' fuse blowing does occur (maybe due to faulty fuses), I cannot actually recall a plug fuse supplying a kitchen appliance ever having blown without there being a reason - hence a need to pull out the appliance for investigation/repair/replacemnent anyway.
I realise it can't really be done, because some people would abuse them dangerously, but in this sort of situation it's a bit of a pity that 13A plugs without fuses (or a 'solid' connection to replace the fuse) are not available - since it's not ideal to have to turn back the clock a few decades and, as bernardgreen suggested, use 5A or 15A plugs/sockets.
Kind Regards, John.
J
johnsville
I have seen a 13A fuse with wire wrapped around the fuse in an inaccessible socket after a FCU.
H
holmslaw
..
So have I. I've also seen far more solid conductors than than put into the fuse holder of a 3A plug, for the same reason. Whilst it makes good engineering sense in the specific situation we are talking about, the scope for (deliberate or unwitting) abuse of any such technique is obvious.I have seen a 13A fuse with wire wrapped around the fuse in an inaccessible socket after a FCU.
However, as I said, if the fuse blows (wherever it is), it's almost certain that one will have to pull the appliance out, anyway, so I don't think the 'inaccessible fuse' situation is actually that much of an issue. Far more important from the point of view of safety is that there should be an accessible means of isolating the appliance without pulling it out.
Kind Regards, John.
In what way would a "13A plug" without a fuse be better than a 15A BS 546?
Well, the 'silly' (but conceivably important) answer is that MIs often say that an appliance should be fitted with a BS1362 13A plug! In engineering terms, it would not be better,provided (as per the context being discussed here) the socket was pretty inaccessible and the plug rarely removed from the socket - but if it were accessible, then the shuttering and shrouding would presumably represent a degree of betterness.
Kind Regards, John
What you propose, or wish existed, would not be BS 1363 compliant plug.
Start looking for some 2nd hand portable x-ray machines....
Interesting. I think these 'red plugs' must have appeared 'after my time'. I've had a lot of dealings in the past with portable x-ray machines but, IIRC, they used large 30A plugs, the sockets for which are (or. at least, were!) to be found all over hospitals.Start looking for some 2nd hand portable x-ray machines....
Kind Regards, John.
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