There has been a shooting...

[EddieM]

hmmm.

Also "In Sweden, private possession of handguns (pistols and revolvers) is permitted under licence, in some cases, but not for the protection of person or property"

Not true Eddie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense_(Sweden)

Guess it depends where you look

 

[LastMagicBean]

That old chestnut.

 

[EddieM]

That old chestnut.

you ar5ed ??

 

[peterperfection]

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -Thomas Jefferson

America has had some pretty s presidents, and many of them wielded great power during such times as the cold war.

One has to wonder how things may have turned out different for America if the government had no reason to fear the citizenry. There are more corrupt dictatorships still today than there are "free democracies".

indeed, would you care to quote it??? any mention of guns

Guns (albeit basic), existed in 1791 when the use of the word "arms" was included in the ratified constitution.

So if you are arguing that "guns" are not mentioned in the constitution, well, good luck with that argument, not like it's been tried before by many........

but you have to remember america is NOT a civilised country.

Spot On Eddie.

 

[peterperfection]

America aspires to be just like us here in UK--but it never will happen.
I have spent a lot of time in usa - and NOT just in vacation places.
I have lived amongst them and been amazed at their lack of respect for life.
I have also been into the backwaters-- the places where they still get married at 12.
Really similar to Deliverance movie'.
Look-- they cant even agree to have the same laws for everyone in all the states. It will never ever change.
Sitting in a restaurant with locals sitting next to you with a magnum hanging from a holster -- feels unerving. Especially in the 'backwoods'-- N Carolina comes to mind .
Appalachian trail comes to mind.
Lots of places like that all over usa .

Squeal like a pig is very true also.

 

[AronSearle]

what's the difference between "a well-regulated militia" and "any nutter with a gun?"

Well, the problem is culturally, Americans see owning a gun as protection against a corrupt state.

And given that "benevolent" governments are pretty rare, and historically very new, (10k years of civilisation vs a hundred or so of "benevolent" governments), It's not really that crackpot a viewpoint.

Take the recent middle east uprisings, they would not have happened with an unarmed populace.

And the danger of gun regulation, is who get's to decide who a nutter is or who a "well-regulated militia man" is, that's right, the state.

Though in fact many states do have checks, and do ban the mentally unstable, no system is perfect.

Gun deaths per 100,000

1.5 Sweden
0.22 UK

And the homicides rates are...

1.0 Sweden
1.2 UK

but you have to remember america is NOT a civilised country.

What a very civilised argument.

 

[EddieM]

what's the difference between "a well-regulated militia" and "any nutter with a gun?"

Well, the problem is culturally, Americans see owning a gun as protection against a corrupt state.

And given that "benevolent" governments are pretty rare, and historically very new, (10k years of civilisation vs a hundred or so of "benevolent" governments), It's not really that crackpot a viewpoint.

Take the recent middle east uprisings, they would not have happened with an unarmed populace.

And the danger of gun regulation, is who get's to decide who a nutter is or who a "well-regulated militia man" is, that's right, the state.

Though in fact many states do have checks, and do ban the mentally unstable, no system is perfect.

Gun deaths per 100,000

1.5 Sweden
0.22 UK

And the homicides rates are...

1.0 Sweden
1.2 UK

but you have to remember america is NOT a civilised country.

What a very civilised argument.

dont know where you got your figures from, but the source in the link above (i have no idea if its right) is :-

Homicides per 100,000 capita.

Sweden 0.19
UK 0.03

I cannot consider any country that murders its own citizens as in any way civilised.

 

[AronSearle]

dont know where you got your figures from, but the source in the link above (i have no idea if its right) is :-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

1.0 Sweden
1.2 UK

I cannot consider any country that murders its own citizens as in any way civilised.

riiight.

 

[EddieM]

dont know where you got your figures from, but the source in the link above (i have no idea if its right) is :-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

1.0 Sweden
1.2 UK

I cannot consider any country that murders its own citizens as in any way civilised.

riiight.

so wikipedia is always correct, as I say, I don't know what official figures are. but then again, I suspect neither do you.

 

[UriBentMySpoon]

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -Thomas Jefferson

America has had some pretty s presidents, and many of them wielded great power during such times as the cold war.

One has to wonder how things may have turned out different for America if the government had no reason to fear the citizenry. There are more corrupt dictatorships still today than there are "free democracies".

indeed, would you care to quote it??? any mention of guns

Guns (albeit basic), existed in 1791 when the use of the word "arms" was included in the ratified constitution.

So if you are arguing that "guns" are not mentioned in the constitution, well, good luck with that argument, not like it's been tried before by many........

Wonder what militia has held back any President from illegal or immoral activities?

 

[sooey]

I cannot consider any country that murders its own citizens as in any way civilised.

I feel the same way about countries which set convicted killers free to kill again, on their unsuspecting populations.

 

[EddieM]

I cannot consider any country that murders its own citizens as in any way civilised.

I feel the same way about countries which set convicted killers free to kill again, on their unsuspecting populations.

i agree, but its a different argument.

 

[AronSearle]

so wikipedia is always correct, as I say, I don't know what official figures are. but then again, I suspect neither do you.

The links on wiki gives the source information including the report from UNODC, so you can check yourself.

 

[EddieM]

so wikipedia is always correct, as I say, I don't know what official figures are. but then again, I suspect neither do you.

The links on wiki gives the source information including the report from UNODC, so you can check yourself.

well I just did, what part of that link mentions firearms??

 

[AronSearle]

so wikipedia is always correct, as I say, I don't know what official figures are. but then again, I suspect neither do you.

The links on wiki gives the source information including the report from UNODC, so you can check yourself.

well I just did, what part of that link mentions firearms??

Sigh.

That's the point, you looked at gun deaths and not homicide rates.

If people are killing each other, does it matter if it is with a gun or a knife.

You wanted to draw people to the conclusion that gun deaths in Sweden are higher = guns cause more deaths, I could draw people to the conclusion that homicide is lower in Sweden = guns prevent homicide.

Both conclusions are nonsense.