THIS IS THE END OF GAS BOILERS

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BOB..DOLE

Looks like the Boffins will put us out of a job in the next 10 years as they can get a constant 56 degrees under 4ft of turf i will go one further why not drill rods into the ground 120ft and genarate heat from these to supply heating free.
 
BOB..DOLE said:
Looks like the Boffins will put us out of a job in the next 10 years as they can get a constant 56 degrees under 4ft of turf i will go one further why not drill rods into the ground 120ft and genarate heat from these to supply heating free.

They are called heat pumps and have been around for eons. They are expensive to buy and cost more to run than gas.
 
dont think running cost is more expensive, but initial setup cost is about 1000 quid per kilowatt for the pump plus heatrods and associated setup.
 
fitz1 said:
dont think running cost is more expensive, but initial setup cost is about 1000 quid per kilowatt for the pump plus heatrods and associated setup.

Nope. Natural gas is cheaper.

It is very difficult to justify them. Although equipment is getting
cheaper:
http://www.navitron.org.uk

Some background:

What is the COP? Coeficient of Perfromance. COP 3 is 1 kW in and 3kW out.

Generally at heating, it is better than using electric elements directly. An immersion heater is COP 1, a gas boiler about COP 0.85, a heat pump about COP 3. Sounds good, but if air to air, then below 7C the COP drops to near COP 2. That is just for the heat pump (compressor). So, when the inside and outside
temperatures drop, the efficiency of the heat pump drops too.

Then there is the SEER ratings for cooling which is about 10 to 17 for air to air.

Then there is the HSPF for heating, which is between 6.8 and 10.0 for air to air.

Both of the above take into account the fans energy too. The higher the figures the better.

Heat pumps do not generate heat; they move heat from one location to another. Heat is moved from the outside air, water or the ground into buildings for heating and DHW. On average heat pumps consume one third of the electricity of electric resistance heaters. Sounds good so far.

Heat is found in what most people would regard as cool or cold points. Even on a very cold day there is heat energy in the outside air. The temperature of air would need to be absolute zero, -273C, for no heat energy to be available. On a freezing -1C day, the air temperature is 272C above absolute zero. 20C is 293C degrees above absolute zero. So, a heat pump only has to raise heat a relatively small amount; the refrigeration cycle does this.

A heat pump is a large refrigerator compressor. The compressor raises the pressure of the refrigeration gas and subsequently the gas temperature. Heat energy is concentrated by the compressor. The absorber has a similar function to an icebox in a fridge, absorbing heat, being either an outside air-to-air radiator, a buried pipe in the ground or a water-to-water heat exchanger in a stream or pond. The emitter, performs a similar function to the warm pipes at the back of a fridge, is the hot water storage vessel, heat distribution pipework or ductwork heater battery inside a house.

Heat pumps may incorporate reversible compressors to provide cooling, typically incorporated within a forced air ventilation system. Generally in temperate climate UK, heat pumps are only capable of providing comfort cooling rather than full cooling, as heating is the prime function. Cooling is unnecessary in the UK if proper insulation, ventilation and shading is fitted in homes. In other countries heat pumps may provide full cooling.

The cooling aspect of heat pumps offends environmentalists, who frown on summer cooling using fossil fuel as the root power source. Although a heat pump can theoretically recover maybe 7 kilowatts from every kilowatt used, the overall efficiency from power station to recovered heat is around 30%. A well designed house in the UK climate does not require forced cooling.

Air Source:

With air sourced heat pumps, heat is extracted from the outside air. Most domestic air sourced heat pumps in the UK have a maximum output of around 5kW (17,000 BTU/h). The problem with air source is that outside air temperatures may fluctuate widely affecting heat pump performance.

Air-source heat pumps work well down to around 7C, below, efficiency depends on the heat loss of the building being heated. If a building is well insulated with a low heat loss, an air-source heat pump can efficiently heat a house with an outside temperature down to -4C, or lower. A poorly insulated house will require a supplemental heat source to assist at an outside temperature around freezing.

Air sourced heat pumps operate at temperatures colder than 7C degrees for much of the winter. When the temperature is -7C degrees and below, efficiencies drop off sharply, with a COP 3 rated heat pump being closer to COP 2 or COP 1 than COP 3. When outside temperatures fall below 5C the heat pump may require periodic defrosting. The heat pump extracts heat from the house to heat the outdoor coils lowing efficiency further.

The Cost:

Gas is about 1/4 to 1/3 cheaper than electricity per kW to buy. Heat pumps on average are 1/2 to a 1/3 cheaper to run than electric resistance heaters, bringing them "near" to the running cost of gas. Electricity from power station to point of burn is about 30% efficient, because of latent heat and line losses. So, may as well burn natural gas at point of use, which is about 90% efficient. Gas overall is cleaner and cheaper to install and run and appliance service and parts found everywhere.

95% of all Heat Pumps in the UK are in commercial installations.

So, you loose 2/3 from gas power station to point of burn, then ramp it up to near what it was in the first place with the heat pump. Costing more than using natural gas. May as well use gas in the first place and save a ton of money on installation, and use this money on insulation and making the house air-tight. Put enough insulation in and pay attention to air-tightness and the heating system can be just a partial system costing little to run.

The above is a guide and in many cases a heat pump can be the ideal option - usually when heat is being extracted from running water and in of-the-grid locations) - however do the sums first and have insulation and air-tightnes as the priority in a house.
 
Useful comparison from Water Systems.

However,
.........have insulation and air-tightnes as the priority in a house.

is not all good news. Insulation is a very useful, but air tightness, or lack of ventilation has its downside.Saving heat by preventing air changes means that dust particles in the air will be higher than in a ventilated house. It seems there are many people who are sensitive to dust, with significant health implications.
 
oilman said:
Useful comparison from Water Systems.

However,
.........have insulation and air-tightnes as the priority in a house.

is not all good news. Insulation is a very useful, but air tightness, or lack of ventilation has its downside.Saving heat by preventing air changes means that dust particles in the air will be higher than in a ventilated house. It seems there are many people who are sensitive to dust, with significant health implications.

You misunderstood. The Canadians say "Build tight, ventilate right". Controlled ventilation.

A 100% air tight house (virtually impossible) would require a heat recovery and vent system.
 
fitz1 said:
you can run the heat pump off a wind turbine.

Absolutely right. Dead easy, er, except today cos there's f all wind. and tomorrow and Thursday AND it's effin freezin'. When WILL people learn wind turbines will not do what is claimed.
 
Water Systems said:
.........have insulation and air-tightnes as the priority in a house.

oilman said:
.......air tightness, or lack of ventilation has its downside

You misunderstood.

Did I?

A 100% air tight house (virtually impossible) would require a heat recovery and vent system.

This is the first mention you have made of heat recovery. It still remains a fact that reduced air changes (euphemistically, "controlled ventilation") has its downside. and the dust level goes up and people suffer because of it.
 
Good post Water Systems, couple of points, a COP of 5-1 is easy to maintain with the right equipment.

And I'm very surprised you didn't mention Rinnai Plate heat exchangers. We use them for cooling in our specialist equipment, and they work a treat, in fact far beyond the original design.

The only downside with ground source heating at this time, and it will get better, is the heavy load on startup, and the installation costs.

At todays fuel prices, a large house would take 30 years to recover the initial expendature.
 
doitall said:
At todays fuel prices, a large house would take 30 years to recover the initial expendature.


exactly

and I`m not loaded
not that enviro friendly
intend on moving in next 5 years
don`t have a big enough garden
 
dig a 4 ft hole stick some oil sodden dirt back in and ring the oil company.once theyve bored their test hole and found nothing , tell them to leave it for you to fill in. 8) one part of job done foc. :lol:
 
I use a Villavent Heat recovery system in my house. This is a Norwegian whole house ventilation system involving a near silent twin fan in a roof mounted unit.

Warm/foul air is extracted from bathrooms, utility, kitchen etc and ducted outside after passing through an air to air heat exchanger.

Fresh air is brought inside by the other fan, passed through the air/air heat exchanger and then ducted into bedrooms and reception rooms.

This system changes the air twice an hour, but keeps the incoming and outgoing air completely separate. However the extracted air has the heat returned (about 70%) to the incoming air in winter months. The heat exchanger is automatically disabled when weather is warmer.

I looked into ground source heat pumps but was unconvinced of the payback time compared to oil fired (Archie Kidd) condensing boilers, so I put in the latter. We do not open the windows most of the winter because one does not feel the need to, so heat retention and ventilation is good.

There are other benefits too, you don't have those horrible noisy Karzi fans required by UK Building Regs. And our AGA type Heritage Range cooker heat emissions are turned round back into the ventilation system.

Can't recommend it highly enough.
 

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