through a back box darkly 2

[sotellme]

Ok, typed it all out for first time ever on a forum, it seems to have dissapeared!

The jist of it was: re-fitting the kitchen, will be re-wiring as there are more spurs than Dodge City, think a few cowboys passed through my kitchen for beans when they left though.

Fitting a Fan Assisted Oven, Gas Hob and an Extractor Hood above it. There will be a 45a cooker switch 150mm above the worktop for the oven, above that switch will be a fused isolation switch for the Gas Hob and above that will be another fused isolation switch for the Extractor Hood.

I don't want to fit the switches horizontally as they get a bit closer to the Hob.

I will chase down the wall from the ceiling with two channels, one for the 6mm radial from the cu that will go to the 45a switch and one for the 2.5mm which will go to the fused switches for the Gas Hob and Extractor Hood and be connected up to an extended ring main with a few double sockets when I find the most appropriate place to join them to it.

Now here's the question. To get the 6mm to the 45a switch it will have to pass through the two back boxes above it - and to get the outgoing 2.5mm from the fused switch above this 45a switch to the 13a socket the Gas Hob will plug into under the worktop, the 2.5mm will have to pass through the back box of the 45a switch. In theory ha, ha, if i use 47mm back boxes for all 3 switches there is plenty of room for sheathed cables to run uninterupted , through the back boxes and behind the switched face plates without being squashed up together.

This would keep them in the safe zone, no one's going to drill into them as they are enclosed. But is it allowed in the regulations etc.

The installation will have to be signed off by a qualified person of course but I am able to put it all together and I do have an annoying eye for the detail and getting it right, I'm told. (a curse at times, I know)

Again, if you've got this far! thanks.

(if the first post turns up, sorry for this 2nd one, Iwill do better next time)

 

[EFLImpudence]

That's a dreadful way to do it. Switches and FCUs installed vertically look awful.

Apart from that electricians are not allowed to 'sign off' other people's work.
Even if they were they would have to take it all apart to do the necessary tests.

You must employ a registered electrician to design the work. I am sure he won't mind you doing all the chasing but he will have to install and connect the work and test while doing it.

The other way is for you to inform the Local Authority Building Control BEFORE you start and they will inspect your work as you progress.
However they will charge you one, two or three hundred pounds, depending on where you live, for the privilege so you may as well get an electrician.

 

[bernardgreen]

To get the 6mm to the 45a switch it will have to pass through the two back boxes above it

Think what might happen if the 2.5mm comes loose in a socket terminal and overheats to melt insulation in the back box. This could end up with the live @ 45 amp coming into contact with the live of the ring main ( max safe fusing 32 amp )

There are other problems as well.

The installation will have to be signed off by a qualified person of course

Of course, but if there was an insurance claim would he be able to pay damages from his professional insurance ?

annoying eye for the detail and getting it right, I'm told

So dark was it in the back box that you could not see the details.

And vertically stacked plates do look bad.

 

[sotellme]

That's a dreadful way to do it. Switches and FCUs installed vertically look awful.

Thanks for this. Yes i think on reflection it's what I've always thought really, they do look awful.
Just goes to show how easy it is to go down the wrong route when you don't have anyone to bounce different ideas off.
I can easily move the FCUs to the other side of the Gas Hob and just move a double socket that's there further to one side, makes the 2.5mm cable route better as well grouping them together.

Apart from that electricians are not allowed to 'sign off' other people's work.
Even if they were they would have to take it all apart to do the necessary tests.

Yes, think I used the wrong term here, I meant a 'Competent Person' whos registered etc. as outlined in the councils part P advice (the bit you covered in your last paragraph)

The other way is for you to inform the Local Authority Building Control BEFORE you start and they will inspect your work as you progress.
However they will charge you one, two or three hundred pounds, depending on where you live, for the privilege so you may as well get an electrician.

Yes, I have a schedule of requirements from the local councils web site for building regs covering part P etc. And yes, my conclusions are pretty much the same as yours.

Having researched on this site and others, the numerous goings on and the ratio of successful, trouble free outcomes, compared with the dubios to completely disastrous and somewhat bizarre outcomes covering this topic, I'm suprised anybody can even be bothered to go that route. Although on balance, maybe we don't hear about all the good ones, after all, if it all goes smoothly your not likely to start complaining about it are you and seldom will people take the time to say how good it was. However, I couldn't be doing with the potential for delays and possible aggravation!

The regs etc. are ok, but there does seem to be an element of variation on how they are interpreted and executed by different authorities. I wonder if it just depend depends what part of the country your in. OUCH!!! sorry - just fell off the soap box.

Right then, what I'm going to be looking for in the search to get the job through to completion, is:

An electrician who is a 'Competent Person' who is 'Registered' to a trade body and can 'Self Certify' and that can issue me with a 'design, installation and test certificate' under BS7671 on completion of the work.

My only restriction on this is that I will do all the mucky stuff (channeling the walls, holes for back boxes etc) as I can take more time and care over it. I don't want to re-tile the whole kitchen as I only have about 50 spare tiles which are no longer available

Do you think that covers it?

 

[sotellme]

Think what might happen if the 2.5mm comes loose in a socket terminal and overheats to melt insulation in the back box. This could end up with the live @ 45 amp coming into contact with the live of the ring main ( max safe fusing 32 amp )

Thanks Bernard,
I have come across a few loose terminals over the years, but not too many. However your point is a very valid one and one that did not spring into my mind at the time - so thank you.

The fact that they are not that common (in my limited experience) does not detract from the issue you raise and after all, you only need it to happen once and you could be potentially 'Toast' - Enough to say, I won't ever be doing it.

Of course, but if there was an insurance claim would he be able to pay damages from his professional insurance ?

Yes, another valid point in these litegous times and one that should always be factored in to a project.

annoying eye for the detail and getting it right, I'm told

So dark was it in the back box that you could not see the details.[/quote]

I have an Indestructable, eternal torch, I believe if you shine enough light on most things for long enough, the devil hiding in the detail will eventually emerge - and so - Enlightenment. (If only I could remember where I put the torch)

Thanks again, must go foe now, the pendleumns swinging lower and the house is singing into the pit again, could be edgar alan poe at the door!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Apart from that electricians are not allowed to 'sign off' other people's work.
Even if they were they would have to take it all apart to do the necessary tests.

Yes, think I used the wrong term here, I meant a 'Competent Person' whos registered etc. as outlined in the councils part P advice (the bit you covered in your last paragraph)

Same difference.

A "Competent Person", i.e. a registered electrician, is not allowed to sign off other people's work, i.e. is not allowed to lie and say he did it all.

An electrician who is a 'Competent Person' who is 'Registered' to a trade body and can 'Self Certify' and that can issue me with a 'design, installation and test certificate' under BS7671 on completion of the work.

My only restriction on this is that I will do all the mucky stuff (channeling the walls, holes for back boxes etc) as I can take more time and care over it. I don't want to re-tile the whole kitchen as I only have about 50 spare tiles which are no longer available

Do you think that covers it?

1) As long as the electrician is happy with you doing that part of it.

2) As ever, personal recommendations are always the best way to find a reputable tradesman, but if you're having to go ahead without much in the way of those, or references, don't put any store by registration itself - sadly it is possible to become registered with woefully inadequate qualifications and zero practical experience. You don't have to spend long here to see people cropping up who are registered and "qualified", but who are clearly seriously incompetent in reality and who should not be charging for their services.

You are looking for someone to rewire a kitchen, and it may surprise and dismay you to learn that it is quite possible to become a "certified electrician" without ever having done that before, and without having acquired any of the practical skills needed to do it without half-destroying your kitchen in the process.

It's your money, £'00s of it, and you have every right to ask prospective tradesmen what their qualifications and experience are. Just being listed here is not a good enough guide. No genuinely experienced electrician, with the "full set" of C&G qualifications will mind you asking - in fact he will wish that everyone was like you.

I feel sorry for people who have been misled by training organisations and (shamefully) the Competent Person scheme organisers into thinking that a 5-day training course, a couple of trivial examples of their work and some basic understanding of how to use test equipment will make them an electrician, but not sorry enough to agree with them trying to sell their services to Joe Public.

And also you need to be wary of people like this: http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=278614

He's got qualifications, and he's got experience, but his experience of the actual type of work he's now charging people for is zero.