I have a new build property, and downstairs i have large porcelain tiles over a wet underfloor heating system, ive found 8 of them that move by about a mm, only been in house 4 weeks... should i be worried as it would be a whole kitchen out, worryingly removing them carefully because of the ufh system.. kinda struggling at the moment as its one problem after another with nowhere to go.
Tiles starting to loosen
- Thread starter Random46
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How long was the screed down before the floor was put on top ?
did the tiler use a flexible tile adhesive?
Were the tiles buttered up or full spread?
I am assuming the underfloor heating is encased in the screed and if that is the case it should be safe to remove carefully, prepare the area and refit. use an acrylic bond and flexible tile adhesive to stick them down.
If the screed still had moisture in it then this could cause delamination as would not using a flexible tile adhesive as the floor needs to expand and contract ever so slightly but enough to move the tiles.
did the tiler use a flexible tile adhesive?
Were the tiles buttered up or full spread?
I am assuming the underfloor heating is encased in the screed and if that is the case it should be safe to remove carefully, prepare the area and refit. use an acrylic bond and flexible tile adhesive to stick them down.
If the screed still had moisture in it then this could cause delamination as would not using a flexible tile adhesive as the floor needs to expand and contract ever so slightly but enough to move the tiles.
Hmm i dont know the answer to any of them questions sorry, but i am guessing they didnt wait, or use a flexible adhesive, there is a very small grout line between the tiles maybe a few mm only ..
suspecting the fact there are now 10 that are loose and i dont have the heating on thats there is definitely a problem, they have said they would rectify it - i am a little concerned that it has happened wondering if they understood the needs of the job.. and how many more will come lose i guess..or how long i wait to say ok lets do these 10.. and come october i have 10 more loose.. thanks
suspecting the fact there are now 10 that are loose and i dont have the heating on thats there is definitely a problem, they have said they would rectify it - i am a little concerned that it has happened wondering if they understood the needs of the job.. and how many more will come lose i guess..or how long i wait to say ok lets do these 10.. and come october i have 10 more loose.. thanks
The screed takes 1 day per 1mm to dry approx. I would say not to lay anything on a new screed for about 6 weeks
I would recommend treating a new screed with a primer acrylic bond or similar (NOT PVA)
The tile adhesive should be a flexible tile adhesive, I prefer the powder form 1 Part Flex 20KG bags
The adhesive should be full spread 5mm - 8mm Notch and not buttered up
If you lift one of the loose tiles and the adhesive looks like a round blob with gaps around the sides it is highly likely they have been buttered up, if this method is not done correctly it will cause the tile to be unevenly supported and the tile will come loose or break when trafficked. The grout line is thin but not out of the normal and again a flexible grout should be used.
I would recommend treating a new screed with a primer acrylic bond or similar (NOT PVA)
The tile adhesive should be a flexible tile adhesive, I prefer the powder form 1 Part Flex 20KG bags
The adhesive should be full spread 5mm - 8mm Notch and not buttered up
If you lift one of the loose tiles and the adhesive looks like a round blob with gaps around the sides it is highly likely they have been buttered up, if this method is not done correctly it will cause the tile to be unevenly supported and the tile will come loose or break when trafficked. The grout line is thin but not out of the normal and again a flexible grout should be used.
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Hi Paul the gaps look narrow but there is a small one. ..think it was a concrete floor with ufh then screed then asphalt. .I can only guess that what was supposed to be done probably hasn't been...it certainly wasn't gradually heated up was just whacked on completely full for 3 weeks soon as the gas was connected
Its a rubber trim that goes between tiles to to divide your floor into bays. They take alot of the lateral stress out of tiles when there is and horizontal movement. On underfloor heating the need to be laid every 5m or less in each direction leaving bays no larger than 25sq.m each, because with heat, comes expansion, and when it cools, you get shrinkage.
I'm slightly suprised that an asphalt layer has been put over UFH. Flooring grade or not, it will move with heat.
I'm sorry to say but I think the whole floor will need redoing, and the only way I can see it surviving is this:
1. remove tiles. Level if needed if some of the old floor comes up. Use BAL Acrybase for patching up.
2. Lay a slurry coat of SBR Primer and tile adhesive (mixed 1:1 by weight)
3. Loose lay your expansion joints, 5m apart in each direction or less (try and make it aesthetically pleasing but no exceeding the 5m mark) and between doorways if tiling adjoining rooms. Also use where 2 different substrates meet if there are any.
4. cover each bay with a decoupling membrane (Ditra is awesome stuff and prevents any excessive expansion in the substrate from transferring to the tiles). Lay this with a defomable flexible adhesive (same adhesive for the tiles). On asphalt with UFH, an S2 deformable such as BAL Singlepart Fastflex or Tilemaster Ultimate would be my weapon of choice. The adhesive will clamp the joints into place once set.
5. Lay the tiles with with a minimum 3mm grout joint, leaving a 5mm gap around the perimeter filled with silicone.
Grout with a flexible cement based grout, and that should be you done.
Be warned. This will be expansive. But its for the long term. Any less preparation may cause a future failure.
I'm slightly suprised that an asphalt layer has been put over UFH. Flooring grade or not, it will move with heat.
I'm sorry to say but I think the whole floor will need redoing, and the only way I can see it surviving is this:
1. remove tiles. Level if needed if some of the old floor comes up. Use BAL Acrybase for patching up.
2. Lay a slurry coat of SBR Primer and tile adhesive (mixed 1:1 by weight)
3. Loose lay your expansion joints, 5m apart in each direction or less (try and make it aesthetically pleasing but no exceeding the 5m mark) and between doorways if tiling adjoining rooms. Also use where 2 different substrates meet if there are any.
4. cover each bay with a decoupling membrane (Ditra is awesome stuff and prevents any excessive expansion in the substrate from transferring to the tiles). Lay this with a defomable flexible adhesive (same adhesive for the tiles). On asphalt with UFH, an S2 deformable such as BAL Singlepart Fastflex or Tilemaster Ultimate would be my weapon of choice. The adhesive will clamp the joints into place once set.
5. Lay the tiles with with a minimum 3mm grout joint, leaving a 5mm gap around the perimeter filled with silicone.
Grout with a flexible cement based grout, and that should be you done.
Be warned. This will be expansive. But its for the long term. Any less preparation may cause a future failure.
Thanks for that there are lots of issue 1 the kitchen needs to come out 2 the tiles go into the hall and utility room 3 the whole utility room will have to come out and downstairs toilet 4 the hall cupboard was built onto the tiles so will need to be knocked down ..and more probably
The ufh isn't working in hall currently so waiting for plumber to resolve this issue suspect when it's resolved the tiles will have the same issue that's why I mentioned Hall also.
I also suspect the house developer will not want to do the job properly and I cannot watch over them giving a list of instructions that only leaves me the option of paying for the whole job myself which along with the other issues is impossible right now due to finances ..so it's a bit of a predicament ..
Also no one will say factually it is done wrong...it's all speculation and I cannot approach the developer with speculation...it's a tough situation. ..sadly the only loser is me....
The ufh isn't working in hall currently so waiting for plumber to resolve this issue suspect when it's resolved the tiles will have the same issue that's why I mentioned Hall also.
I also suspect the house developer will not want to do the job properly and I cannot watch over them giving a list of instructions that only leaves me the option of paying for the whole job myself which along with the other issues is impossible right now due to finances ..so it's a bit of a predicament ..
Also no one will say factually it is done wrong...it's all speculation and I cannot approach the developer with speculation...it's a tough situation. ..sadly the only loser is me....
If they are tiling in a customers property, they should know what they are doing and know what preparations are required. I don't see why you should be out of pocket for poor workmanship.
Obviously we don't know the correct procedure or time scales, but there will be tell-tale signs to show if they kcufed it up.
Example, if there are no expansion joints, thats the first thing, because if the job is over 36 square metres, they have not complied with British Standards (BS5385).
If the tiles are loose, lift a few up. If the adhesive has stuck to the tile but not the floor, they have probably used the incorrect adhesive or have not primed the floor correctly.
Lifting the tiles may also show any cracks in the asphalt, which could mean that either the underfloor heating was incorrectly commissioned, or the heating has caused excessive expansion beyond the capabilities of the adhesive (this is one of the things that the Ditra would have combated), which also means asphalt was totally the wrong choice of substrate to tile onto. It may also be a sign that it was tiled too soon after the surface had been laid.
If the grout joints are less than 3mm wide (the minimum required by British Standards), there's you're 4th issue to raise with them.
Quite simply you have enough to raise a complaint against them. The very least they should do is come to your property to examine it. If the tiles have come unstuck, there is a reason for it. and if you had nothing to do with the installation of the tiles, the liability will lay with the house builder and installer. Hope this helps, but if you need any further info let me know. Better still if you can post some images of the whole area and close-ups of the loose tiles (and whats beneath them after the tiles have been lifted) I'll be able to advise further.
Obviously we don't know the correct procedure or time scales, but there will be tell-tale signs to show if they kcufed it up.
Example, if there are no expansion joints, thats the first thing, because if the job is over 36 square metres, they have not complied with British Standards (BS5385).
If the tiles are loose, lift a few up. If the adhesive has stuck to the tile but not the floor, they have probably used the incorrect adhesive or have not primed the floor correctly.
Lifting the tiles may also show any cracks in the asphalt, which could mean that either the underfloor heating was incorrectly commissioned, or the heating has caused excessive expansion beyond the capabilities of the adhesive (this is one of the things that the Ditra would have combated), which also means asphalt was totally the wrong choice of substrate to tile onto. It may also be a sign that it was tiled too soon after the surface had been laid.
If the grout joints are less than 3mm wide (the minimum required by British Standards), there's you're 4th issue to raise with them.
Quite simply you have enough to raise a complaint against them. The very least they should do is come to your property to examine it. If the tiles have come unstuck, there is a reason for it. and if you had nothing to do with the installation of the tiles, the liability will lay with the house builder and installer. Hope this helps, but if you need any further info let me know. Better still if you can post some images of the whole area and close-ups of the loose tiles (and whats beneath them after the tiles have been lifted) I'll be able to advise further.
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Hi Paul, the total area depends where your talking but kitchen about 35sqm, utility about 5-6sqm and hallway about 15sqm all close guesses.
I cannot see any expansion joints, presuming i would be able to see them? It looks like the gaps are about 3mm pic attached.
Hard to photo the whole area but I'd say in kitchen the tiles are not coming out yet 10 are lose ie when you walk on them you can hear and feel about a mm or more of movement you can tell it's loose...also the whole floor when lay down looking across it all the joints seem uneven where one corner or tile edge will be not level with the other creating a lip. .. this is less obvious in the hall I suspect as heating is not working. You can feel it when walking around in bare feet too...
I cannot see any expansion joints, presuming i would be able to see them? It looks like the gaps are about 3mm pic attached.
Hard to photo the whole area but I'd say in kitchen the tiles are not coming out yet 10 are lose ie when you walk on them you can hear and feel about a mm or more of movement you can tell it's loose...also the whole floor when lay down looking across it all the joints seem uneven where one corner or tile edge will be not level with the other creating a lip. .. this is less obvious in the hall I suspect as heating is not working. You can feel it when walking around in bare feet too...
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Ok, its a start. The grout joints look ok.
With regards to the area, if all the rooms are directly connected, it is classed a one single tiled area. So the minimum place for expansion joints is through each tiled doorway. If an area exceeds 5 metres in either direction, there should be another expansion joint. And looking at your pictures, I can't see one.
It can get rather complicated as the standard for underfloor heating on a solid concrete base is that no bay should exceed an area of 8x5m. but with a potential flexible floor like heated asphalt, that need to be taken into account and they should be used more frequently. Now we just need to see whats happening beneath the tiles if possible
With regards to the area, if all the rooms are directly connected, it is classed a one single tiled area. So the minimum place for expansion joints is through each tiled doorway. If an area exceeds 5 metres in either direction, there should be another expansion joint. And looking at your pictures, I can't see one.
It can get rather complicated as the standard for underfloor heating on a solid concrete base is that no bay should exceed an area of 8x5m. but with a potential flexible floor like heated asphalt, that need to be taken into account and they should be used more frequently. Now we just need to see whats happening beneath the tiles if possible
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