TV aerial quote.

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The wife had an Aerial guy out today, mainly to add a feed to a bedroom and run a cable for a magic eye to our bedroom. We have multiple TV points and the wife was told the signals running on 34 out of 40??? What ever that is. Good/bad does anyone know?

The advise was the whole lot has had it and needs replacing. Aerial, Amp, all cabling. The quote was £350, itimised the aerial, pole, amp and to run a magic eye cable but it didn't mention re wiring the other 5 tele points.

Does this quote sound okay? Does the cabling really need replacing? Some is 25 years old some Is 10 years old. Looking on screwfix I can change the amp myself for £35. Maybe a good place to start?
 
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Is the system working at the minute, if so, what is their justification for reinstalling brand new cabling. I assume thout you're controlling a master box from the magic eye.

You can always query with him regarding the other 5 points, but I reckon you'll find it's included, but why haven't you contacted other installer for further opinions.
 
Is the system working at the minute, if so, what is their justification for reinstalling brand new cabling. I assume thout you're controlling a master box from the magic eye.

You can always query with him regarding the other 5 points, but I reckon you'll find it's included, but why haven't you contacted other installer for further opinions.

The points do work but the wife was told the signal is 34/40. I have no idea whatever that means. There's no magic eye as of yet. We want to connect one up to the sky box.

I am going to get some more quotes just thought I'd ask you helpful guys here as well.
 
I can install an aerial system, but I have no idea what 34/40 is, so you'll have to wait for someone more competent to determine if that's a bit of a scam. But again, you could ask the installer to explain it to you, and see how much of a bullshyte answer you get. If the system is working okay, then a new cable would feed the magic eye into the bedroom should be all you need, but is he installing a standard terestrial amplifier, or a F connector type amplifier. What did the quotes say.


But have you considered Sky Q instead. It will give you a feed to the bedroom TV via wifi.
 
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It's easy for folk to pick holes in a quote while sitting in the comfort of their living room. As the person asking, you've no idea whether the respondents are in any way qualified or what their motivation might be.

As it stands we've only got a vague idea of what the job might entail, and no idea what quality of gear is being proposed, nor the amount of actual work involved to complete it. For example, if changing all the cable means lifting a loft floor and removing the existing wiring internal and external of the house then £350 might be cheap. On the other hand, if you live in a strong signal area and the quote is just the aerial, amp and magic eye run then £350 feels quite top heavy. There are just too many unknowns to give a simple Yes/No answer.

The best way to approach this then is to look at the justification for each part, and to make some recommendations about the sort of quality of gear that should be used. After all, if you're going to pay for someone to change all the wiring (and there are some good reasons why you might want to do that) then you want to make sure that you won't have to spend good money after bad because the installer put in some rubbish


Bracket: Reasons to change include the bracket being very badly rusted or too small for the job. This last point is most important. I've done jobs where a previous installer put in the cheapest chimney bracket - a 6" pressed steel - to save £4-£5 but it hasn't been able to cope with the wind loading on the aerial. These brackets are bad. Don't be talked in to one. The bracket moves and it levers the bricks loose on the chimney. It wrecks the pointing and starts a leak in to the roof space. The home owner then needs a roofer out to repoint the chimney. A fiver saved costs £300-£1000 in remedial work depending on the severity of damage and whether scaffolding is needed.

If it's a chimney and the pole is 2-3m long then an 8" mitre cradle made from galvanised steel should do the trick. If the homes around you have 20ft/7m poles because of trees or some other obstruction then you'll need either a 13.5" mitre cradle or a pair of double brackets to spread the load. Go for galvanised rather than painted steel. They last longer and look tidier.


Mast: Reasons to change include cosmetic ( it was steel and is now rusty as hell ) or to do with size i.e. it's too thin or not long enough for the job. Go with aluminium rather than steel - they last longer and don't rust. The diameter and length depend on the requirements of the job. Shorter poles (2m) should be 1.25" diameter. See here for a general guide


Aerial: Reason to change include that it was a cheap contract aerial with poor gain, or is a grouped aerial or a high-gain wideband aerial that was good for the frequency range before the switch to digital but post-DSO the frequencies were moved and now it isn't such a good match, the aerial has fallen to bits, it's letting in water to the coax cable. [Note; there are no 'digital' TV aerials, nor are there special aerials for HD. I've done jobs where a decent 20-year-old Yagi has pulled in respectable signal levels for digital TV including the HD channels.]

The local knowledge of a decent honest aerial installer is gold. Aerials can either be broad spectrum such as the Group T Log Periodics (ch 21-60), or they can be focused on a narrower band of frequencies; for example Group A Yagi (ch21-37). The narrow focus aerials produce a stronger signal in their optimum band, so if this happens to match your local transmitter then you'll need less (or no) amplification of the signal, and that's good because it means less added signal noise from electronic amps. A good installer will know this, and also which local transmitter best serves your area.

Aerials to avoid are the now defunct wide-band high-gain types because they don't filter above ch60 where there is 4G interference for some areas of the country. There are also lots of cheap (and some not-so-cheap) wide-band high-gain aerials that are poorly made and don't last that long before bits stop dropping off. Here are some examples: one two three

Amplification: Reasons to change include the need for more outputs, or changing to a type that will pass the Sky Eye signals. Amplification also covers masthead amps. These are an amplifier fitted very close to the aerial and used for the purpose of increasing the signal power level where reception is marginal. Being fitted on the aerial mast itself means the amp gets the cleanest signal from the aerial which helps to better preserve the signal-to-noise ratio. Masthead amps tend to be either single output or 4 output but there are some with 5- and with 6-outputs. A more common combination is to use a single output masthead amp that then feeds an indoor multi-way amp for the rest of the house.

Note: with digital signals too much signal amplification can be just as bad as not enough signal. Beware buying something too powerful. A decent installer will (or should) carry a range of products and be able to test both signal quantity and quality at various points in the chain. That's part of the reason why we don't work for beer money; we are bringing a mobile TV and satellite shop to your home so we can tailor the system to overcome on-site issues. In this way we provide enough signal level compensation while maintaining signal quality without over-driving the TV's aerial inputs.
 
Cable and accessories: Part of the reason for the gain of an amplified multi-way splitter (distribution amp) is to compensate for the signal losses in the cables radiating to the various TV points. Good cable (Webro WF100) loses signal power at a predictable rate of roughly 1.5dB for every 10m. (This is a rule of thumb average number though. The losses are smaller at low frequencies and greater a higher frequencies.) Each joint in the cable run introduces a loss too: The attachment of the coax cable to the dist' amp produces roughly a 0.2~0.3dB loss if using the screw-on F connector. This makes it easier to plan and design a distribution system.

Things can get a bit trickier when you start to introduce poor quality cable such as RG6, or worse still "Low loss" coax - which is an oxymoron if ever there was because the last thing it is is low loss. Add to that dist' amps using the Belling & Lee style "TV coax plugs". There's such of wide variety of quality in these especially now as so much gear is sourced from China, some of which are really bloody awful and provide both a poor mechanical- and a poor electrical connection. IOW, they can be lossy, prone to oxidation/corrosion and they fall out of the sockets; and that's before you factor in fitting them badly.

Then there's the wall plates which people love. Apart from the fact that it introduces at least two more connection losses, the type of plate itself can add significant loss as well as being a gateway for interference in to your system. The final link in the chain is the humble coax fly lead. If you have leads like this in your system then my recommendation is to bin them and replace with lengths of WF100 fitted with decent TV coax plugs. Those moulded cables have very poor screening and are extremely lossy for such a short link of cable.

The reasons for swapping out all the cable include getting rid of poorly-screened coax cable, and to eliminate cable joints and poor splices where extensions have been added, and to replace kink-damaged cable, and to provide something with better longevity, and to deal with problems caused by water ingress because the outer sheathing is worn (abrasion on roof cables) or cracked/split either from poor installation or it just went brittle from UV exposure and weathering. There's only one cable you want to see your installer fitting for the average house, and that's Webro WF100. You can recognise it because it has Webro WF100 printed on the outer sheath and when that is removed you'll see a copper braiding over a thick copper foil. The centre core is solid copper too. There are alternatives - CT100 is an equivalent but it's the same design and the same price too.

If he's turning up with something he say is "just like WF100" then get him to show you what it looks like after the outer sheath is stripped back. If it's copper braid over a silver-looking foil, or silver-looking braid and silver-looking foil then chances are you're looking at RG6. That's not silver, it's aluminium, and the foil is aluminium-coated plastic. The centre core of RG6 is steel with an anodised copper coating. You can test this with a magnet. Steel sticks to a magnet, solid copper does not. Don't accept it.


Summary: The TV aerial game is fiercely competitive between the cowboys. That creates a bit of a false impression about pricing in the market. Sometimes the once-decent installers get dragged down by this and start to cut corners; cheap cable, budget aerial, poorer quality ancillaries etc - all just to shave a few Pounds off the cost to try to turn a profit in the face of competition from idiots. A lot of the time the cowboys get away with doing the cheap job because householders haven't the info to tell a good install from a bad one, and if an installer tries to educate them there's this suspicion that they're trying to do a rip-off job. Often the decent installer is trying to save the customer money (and hassle) in the long run. It's cheaper to buy quality once than throw good money after bad fixing a bodged install.

At the other end of the scale some installers do try it on. There are large professional-looking national firms who quote a cheap price for a small job, then get to site and tell the house owner they need loads more work doing. I can't name names but in the Aerial business they're often a Force to be reckoned with.

Somewhere in the middle there's the decent guys working hard to make a living and doing a good job. You'll find them either by recommendation or by quizzing the guy on the quality of the gear he uses.
 
Presumably the 34/40 is signal strength?
I have an aerial meter somewhere but don't know if there is an actual standard

I don't have satellite but my freeview equipment has a signal strength meter built in
Presumably local knowledge applies as you're unlikely to receive 40/40 or 100%
 
If 34/40 is the signal strength, then it should be fine; signal quality is far more important than signal strength.

And thanks for those posts Lucid, very informative.
 
Signal status can be measured in a number of ways. With a professional meter I can look at the absolute signal strength, the signal to noise ratio (SNR or C/N which is Carrier/Noise) and the Bit Error Rate. The signal strength on its own doesn't really mean much. SNR or C/N gives an indication of signal quality and the amount of noise in the system from electronic amplification or interference. The Bit Error Rate tells me how much corruption there is in the signal.

Some TVs give a reading for signal strength "S" and for quality "Q". Of the two it is quality that's the most important.Strength can always be increased with an amplifier or booster, but quality comes from one place only - the aerial. There's no way to boost quality if it's not there in the first place. The display of S and Q on most TVs is weighted on the optimistic side, so only use it as a rough guide.

As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, Quality is the most important element. It's possible to have quite a low signal strength (S) but lots of Quality and get a great picture on TV. The flip side would be lousy quality from the aerial (badly aligned / broken / wrong type) and then it's over-amplified. This would give very high S but very low Q and a terrible picture; lots of pixelation and freezing. Bearing in mind that the TV's metering might not be that accurate, ideally you're looking for 80-100% on the Q scale, and 40-60% would be perfectly okay for Strength.

A guideline for signal strength at the TV's aerial input is 45~65dBuV. But that doesn't really mean much without a pro meter to measure it. However, what we can say is that your installer's "34 out of 40" doesn't correspond to the same kind of measurement scale. It would make me question just how he arrived at those numbers.
 
A guideline for signal strength at the TV's aerial input is 45~65dBuV. But that doesn't really mean much without a pro meter to measure it. However, what we can say is that your installer's "34 out of 40" doesn't correspond to the same kind of measurement scale. It would make me question just how he arrived at those numbers.

That was what flummoxed me Lucid, I have nowhere near your experience, but can do a good job, but the 34/40 meant nothing to me. I've got an old Horizon TM plus, bit I can't upgrade it for digital, so without wishing to interrupt this thread, can you give me a pointer to a reasonably price meter.
 
If you don't mind foregoing the HD muxes then there's a couple of Horizon HD TM-Plus meters on Ebay right now. This meter will pick up the DVB-T muxes just fine, and generally if you can get your aerial aligned for those then the HD reception will be good too.

For my next meter I'd like something with satellite and DVB-T/T2 combined. I quite fancy a look at the Amiko X-Finder. I know it won't be as user-friendly as a Horizon, and possibly not as weather-proof either, but as aerial and satellite installation is such a small part of my business I think I could cope.



I noticed on Ebay there's the Amiko Multi Tracker 2 which is also DVB-T/T2 DVB-S combined for about £130.
 
One thought on this 34/40.......... I wonder if something got lost in translation? "Your system is running at 34 to 40dB " makes better sense as that 6dB range might account for the difference in strength across the muxes. The only fly in the ointment is whether the TVs would actually work with just 34dB of signal.
 
I have to be honest Lucid, much as you might be right on the system running at 34 to 40db, and 34 not being very strong, as the OP didn't complain about any problems (only wanting to extend his installation) I felt that the installer might not be as straightforward as he could be. Thanks for the advice on the Amiko, I'll have a look at it.
 

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