Two electric supplies

[JezR]

Hello all,

I'm after some advice. I represent a small charity that owns a building with an electricity supply, and leases a neighbouring shop with an electrical supply. The shop has a flat above, out of our control.

Our fire alarm covers our building and the leased shop. There is no other electrical crossover.

We have just been told (by the landlord of the shop) that we are in breach of regs by having two electricity supplies. Is this so, and can somebody point me to the relevant regs please.

Thanks

JezR

 

[big-all]

you lease a shop from a landlord who is i assume responcible for the shop its electrical and gas supply and safety certification??

i assume you have a connected building under another let arangement ??
do you have an extension cable or other supply to his building ??
why has this happened ?? have you tried to resolve the situation

your landlord can only charge a small "administration cost " off perhaps 20% over what the power costs him dependant on direct costs
he cannot claim the £2000 connection cost against your your bill only reasonable normal running costs

 

[pjcomp]

I can't offhand think of an electrical reg that's being transgressed - possibly the fact that if you switched off the power in the leased shop the alarm circuit would still be live isn't strictly by the book, but you could solve this with suitable warning notices for the benefit of maintenance workers.

If the landlord says it's against regs he presumably knows which regs, so ask him to be more clear about his compliant. Presumably you have a good reason for sharing your alarm system across the premises, so explain it to him and come to an amicable agreement.

PJ

 

[JezR]

To expand on the situation.

Our building has a single phase incomer and we are looking into costs of upgrading this to three phase so we can instal a DDA compliant lift.

The adjoining building (shop with a commercial kitchen at the rear, flat above) has a three phase supply. The landlord of this building as just had a new header fitted on his supply by the supply company.

We lease the groundfloor of this building.

The landlord made the inital enquiry about three phase for our building on our behalf as he has experience of this.

The two buildings are joined by a single doorway into the kitchen, protected by a 1 hour fire door.

There are no electrical supply connections/extension leads crossing between the two properties.

Our fire alarm does cross into the leased building, this was a building/fire regs requirement because of the use of the kitchen.

The landlord has stated that as part of the enquiries into us upgrading our supply from single phase to three phase, the supply company have stated that as the two buildings are connected, we can only have one supply point.

Is this correct?

Thanks for your help so far.

Jez

 

[mfarrow]

It's funny that this was not a problem when they changed the shop head for a 3-phase (?). Was this what was done or was it just a new meter swap?

In any case, you need to speak to/reason with the engineer from the electricity supplier. They all have their own rules and regulations, but you must make it clear that the shop and your building are owned by two separate individuals, and they should the lease on your shop not be renewed, they would become separate one day anyway, at which point a 3-phase supply would definitely be required.

Having said that it is often difficult to get two supplies at one location (even the other side of the road, but feeding the same client!) so all I can wish you is good luck, but dialog will help.

 

[JezR]

The shop already had 3ph but has had the header and meter changed.

I've just had an email to say ENWL will upgrade our single phase supply to three phase for £3,060 which is an awful lot cheaper than we had been lead to believe.

However they expect us to stop using one supply or the other.

The points where the two supplies enter the adjacent buildings are approx 120 ft apart. One enters from the front of the building, another off a side street.

If we were to stop using one supply, we would have to run a 3ph swa between the two points. Not easy in a Victorian building, without abutting cellars.

I'm getting all this info second hand from the landlord of the shop. I'll speak to ENWL direct about this.

Thanks for your help so far.

Jez

 

[mfarrow]

The shop already had 3ph but has had the header and meter changed.

Quite normal, they only last so long, and will be part of routine maintenance.

Yes, speak to ENW direct and let us know what they say.

 

[BSBS]

I'd guess since its not to do with the fact that the electrical supplies cross form one building to the other that there only issue is the fact that the two buildings are connected via this door therefore its essentially one building. Are the two building addresses different ? it may be that the building is listed as one property on there records.

 

[Chri5]

I'd have thought that if the lease / freehold paper work indicates 2 distinct properties then each property is entitled to it's own supply.

The issue here seems solely to do with the smoke detection from one building serving both buildings.

Maybe a solution to this would be to split the smoke circuit to be powered just by the building supply the smoke detectors are in, and then (here's the clever bit)- use wireless smokes that are linked on the same wireless band.

That would then mean than neither building is linked electrically.

From what I know wireless grouped smokes running off more than one circuit is not an issue- you'd just have to make sure that the signal can travel between the buildings.

 

[JezR]

No its definitely two separate addresses, two owners, etc

I am beginning to wonder if the fact the shop owner made the enquiry on our behalf is confusing the matter.

Will find out on Monday.

Jez

 

[JezR]

The fire alarm circuits are more than just detectors. Building regs insisted on break glass in kitchen and sounders in kitchen and flat above. Slightly more complex than just using wireless smokes.

EDIT
Do you mean two independent systems linked by wireless?


Jez

 

[BSBS]

I think you need to go back to basics as it were, contact the supplier yourself and discuss directly with them about upgrading your own supply. Make no mention about anything else just get them out explain what you want and take it from there.

I fail to see how the fact that two properties making use of one24v fire alarm system is cause for the supplier to insist on two independant properties using only one supply.

 

[mfarrow]

No its definitely two separate addresses, two owners, etc

I am beginning to wonder if the fact the shop owner made the enquiry on our behalf is confusing the matter.

Probably! Here's the standard Manweb NorthWest United's application form for a new supply, if the landlord's filled out both his and your addresses, they'll have spotted that and flagged it.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Ask the supplier what their position is regarding LAN cables run between the two premises.

Ask them what their position is regarding SAN cables run between the two premises.

Ask them what their position is regarding phone cables run between the two premises.

Ask them what their position is regarding doorbell cables run between the two premises.

Ask them what their position is regarding burglar alarm cables run between the two premises.

As them to explain any apparent discrepancies between any of those positions, and any of those and the one concerning the fire alarm cables.

 

[ajrobb]

I'd have a chat with your local authority building control. The fact that the premises are connected by a 60 min fire door suggests that perhaps there ought to be some link between them. In the end, what BC says, goes.