Vaillant, Worcester or Alpha

[whipping boy]

Hi guys, and thanks for being here.
So much has failed with the vokera linea that it's going, with it's porous heat exchanger, to the scrapyard.
The wife has narrowed the choice down to Vaillant, or Worcester, but the plumber was pushing the Alpha. I know the first two have the track record, but the other has 7 years parts and labour, as opposed to two for the others.
Which is our best choice?
Also, what do you reckon to the gassave option for the alpha? It's some sort of heat exchanger on the flue gas, but when I said the maximum it could reclaim would be the 8% missing from a 92% efficient boiler, I was told I had completely misunderstood the concept, '..like a lot of people '.

Thanks in anticipation,
Jim

 

[bengasman]

The reason your plumber is pushing for the alpha is simple; he gets a better deal, proving that he is more interested in his personal gain than in doing the best job he can. Alphas are not the worst, but don't come anywhere near the quality of the brands you have found yourself.
On the whole, probably not much difference in the quality of WB and vailant, personally I stick with WB as they are known to have the best after sales and vailant are known to have a bit of an attitude when it comes to that.
Choose whatever brand you like best, and find an installer that specialises in that make; when you buy a car, you don't go to a garage that does fiat and volkswagen, and peugeot, do you?

 

[mickyg]

Choose whatever brand you like best, and find an installer that specialises in that make

sorry i have to disagree with that. I would say find an quality installer thats prefferably recommended by others, and installs confidence in you when he talks. The fact that the Op is questioning his advice here obviously means he didn't do this.
Once you've found your quality installer (the hard bit)he will recommend a product he is probably familiar with and has faith in. If you still want to go with something different he will have no problem installing any boiler of your choosing.
We all have our favourites but if a custard wants something different then that they shall have.

Micky

 

[ServiceNumpty]

Why not go on the Worcester Website and choice a Worcester Approved Installer. You will get 5 year warranty, with a nice little certificate to prove it. Steer away from the WB Junior range of boilers, if you can push it go for the cdi range.

 

[simond]

You are right, the gas saver cannot take the efficiency of the unit over 100%. it prewarms the cold water inlet of the boiler reducing the energy needed to provide HW; but this assumes the CH has been on to warm the flue first.

Savings of 50% of the HW bill are talked about, but HW only accounts for around 20% of the gas bill anyway.

It is a good idea and the payback is shorter than many other so called Green technologies, such as solar. But it is still not much of a return on investment.

Regarding the three boilers, Alpha are selling an Italian product and giving a warranty that is intended to buy market share. Bearing in mind Worcester sell 300,000 boilers a year and Alpha didn't manage 30,000 last year (allegedly) one has to question whether they can afford to buy business this way.

The Alpha heat exchanger is the same one Vaillant use, other parts are different.

For my twopenny worth, the Vaillant is better made but the aftersales support is not up to the Worcester; the Worcester CDi is a Junkers German boiler and is superior to their UK made i and Si series. The Alpha is not of the same quality as the other two, but is a perfectly good boiler.

 

[whipping boy]

With the death of the extended family, it's great to have a whole raft of plumbing uncles and aunts to ask for help, and I am grateful for all the replies.
Regarding my 'movement towards purchase' Mickyg, I tend to research on the net first, vehicle or boiler. Armed with some info from this I am able to decide which of the plumbers is the 'quality installer' for me.
Alarm bells go off when I am told something I don't believe -in this case, that Alpha are the best, and that I don't understand the idea of the heat exchanger.
A builder once told me that after a certain thickness, insulation actually stops working. I guess he really meant 'is no longer cost effective' but that is altering all the time with the price of fuel.
We are looking at the cdi now, thanks to the recommendations.


Thanks again for the replies

Jim

 

[obiplumbkinobi]

Depends where you want to site the boiler, have a look at Atag

 

[Paul Barker]

The Alpha is not a 30,000 unit boiler it is an Immergas boiler whose outfit in Europe could fit the Worcester premises in the back yard.

Alpha is a really well run marketing organisation branding extremely reliable well made boilers for the UK market. They haven't made another mistake sinbce the Ocean. They found the boiler which saved Baxi's skin.

I used to fix Alphas, in the present range there are no design weaknesses or hidden surprises they repair very easily with a first call fix every time.

With the Alpha and the Vaillant clean system is essential for longevity of thin tubed stainless heat exchanger.

With the Worcester I don't like the complicated procedure for cleaning the aluminium oxide out of the heat exchanger. In the event I very much doubt that it is done. For quite a few years it is sufficient to measure the force of air flowing through it which if it meats certain parameters indicates no need to clean the heat exchanger. My conscern is that when it becomes necessary it will be a very difficult expensiuve job or it simply won't be done. Not many boiler service personel are saints I take the case off a neglected boiler many times a day. I fully expect these Worcesters to be neglected in years to come. Those who do the work conscientiously will not be happy about working in your house. An unhappy boiler repair person is not the one you want.

If the boiler is going in the loft this will compound the problem.

End result early demise of improperly serviced boiler. Bad design criteria in the first place. The siuster co,mpany Buderus made theoir heat exchanger cleanable within minutes it has a chance of being done. However they have had a nationwide job done on their burner which I know insufficient about to be confident in the brand any more. Worcester who back the Buderus up as part of the same group are appearing to do their best to eliminate sales altogether.

I don't know another aluminium heat exchangered boiler I would want in my house so the Alpha and the Vaillant out of your list are the two choices.

The gassaver is a great idea.

Also consider viessman as they use the gassaver too I believe.

If I install these days I have been using the Broag.

 

[Paul Barker]

Just to mention installers I was always impressed by the isntallers whoi recommend Alpha. The only bad alpha jobs are boilers which have been moved by a builder to go with an extension or a conservatory. Then you have a cowboy job to sort out.

 

[doitall]

I fitted an Alpha in my club last year and it's been faultless so far.

It is very noisy though and would be totally unacceptable in an occupied house, perhaps I got a Friday boiler.

 

[simond]

I meant that Alpha sell less than 30,000 per year in the UK. Alpha are a private company and don't exist outside the UK. It is common knowledge that Immergas supply the hardware but they do not support the UK.

I heard earlier this year that Immergas have been bought by Bosch. Any truth in this rumour?

 

[bengasman]

...I heard earlier this year that Immergas have been bought by Bosch. Any truth in this rumour?

Let's hope not. Had a quick look at their website, and the boiler shown (logically their topmodel) gave one immediate impression: yuck, that looks cheap. Wouldn't be surprised it they produce a lot of things for the budget market.

 

[Deleted member 105431]

Just my tuppence worth; get the vaillant ecotecplus 831 or the WB 32cdi, the alpha is not in the same league.

 

[whipping boy]

An update on the decision we made.
WB32cdi. Fitted in bedroom 4ft from my ear at the moment, and although I can hear it, no way does it keep me awake.
We had to call out wb after repeated lockouts which the plumber couldn't fathom. The plumber did his best, but ended up giving the wife some twaddle about the upstairs radiators being full of air and the warm water returning to the boiler...
WB engineer came next day - saturday- and diagnosed immediately from my description of gurgling air through water sound. Too much resistance in the water trap in the condensate outlet- it was fed into the dishwasher outlet.
Just removed a bung to let air in, like in a washing machine trap, and no problem since.
One niggle with the plumber, guys. The quote said 'remove all associated pipework' ( it was a relocate). Several lengths of unassociated pipework went to the holiday fund as well, and I had them earmarked for another job. All the plastic associated pipework stayed where it was though, strangely.
Thanks again for your help guys and gals
Whipping boy
('cause whatever goes wrong it is my fault)

 

[LaEcoTec]

The reason your plumber is pushing for the alpha is simple; he gets a better deal, proving that he is more interested in his personal gain than in doing the best job he can. Alphas are not the worst, but don't come anywhere near the quality of the brands you have found yourself.
On the whole, probably not much difference in the quality of WB and vailant, personally I stick with WB as they are known to have the best after sales and vailant are known to have a bit of an attitude when it comes to that.
Choose whatever brand you like best, and find an installer that specialises in that make; when you buy a car, you don't go to a garage that does fiat and volkswagen, and peugeot, do you?

I know this is an old post but I personaly think that Vaillant after sales has hugely improved. I've been a loyal customer for over 10 years.
Their call out times are now same day / next day. I have the same engineer each year to service my recently installed Ecotec. Only broken down on me twice in 4 years but to be fair the engineer found out it was my Honeywell timer was not communicating with the boiler.