Water getting in around window. Fix?

[theprinceofdarkness]

Mike I sort of agree with you, but somewhere under the window is a machined slot to drain water out of the frame which must not be blocked, though the OP said the inside of the frame was dry.
Frank

 

[Gazman16]

I agree, so why can't he put a small beading of white silicone on the outside joint between the window frame and the sill, I thought he had done this, so no water would enter from below the frame and through that gap and even though that kick up on its edge is there, water could still run side ways and emerge from the edges whewre the wall meets the frame and sill. Seems that OP has not sealed that gap or joint.

I think he sealed that gap between the frame and the kick up section with silicone from the inside but still the water is entering from the outside and reaching his walls.

The external gap between the window and cill is for drainage and should not be sealed it will just make things worse as water getting into the frame cannot get out.
The external gasket against the glass having shrunk are not a big problem as the frames are designed to drain out the bottom. All you need to do is pull the rubbers out and stretch them a bit.
Sealing along the inside edge between the cill and window will never last long but again if it was leaking here it would be coming out all over the window boards.

The problem is (90% sure) that the ends of the cills have not been sealed (or silicone has broken down). When you fit a window you run a bead of silicone along the back edge of the cill (the lip) and also the full thickness of the window at the two ends then bed the window down into that silicone.
Just as water drains out on the outside it can also be blown back by the wind, When this happens it will make its way to the ends of the cill and if there is no silicone there to stop it it goes straight into the walls/bricks/cavity.
This is a common problem I see all the time when windows are fitted by builders (no offense to you good guys) or people who don't know/care what they are doing, They don't seal the ends of the cill!

Unfortunately if the back edge of the cill has not been sealed the only remedy is to take it all out and start again.
If it is just the ends that haven't been sealed than you can knock a hole in either the plaster or render in the corners to seal it up, The hole will have to be big enough to point a silicone gun around and under the sides of the window. A few of these will reduce the size of the hole you need to make http://www.sealantsandtoolsdirect.c...d_silicone_sealant_nozzle_adapter_P24522.html

I did tell the OP to knock out a 2" x 2" hole in the corners of the plaster and take some photos but he hasn't done it yet.

 

[Gazman16]

Here is a pic of a window sat on a cill to show you what I mean.
I forgot to add to my last post that this could still be a bridged DPC problem. One of the reasons we need to see a pic with the plaster knocked off

 

[theprinceofdarkness]

Cheers Gazman16, I always wondered how the cill and windows worked.
Frank

 

[Gazman16]

Most makes do not have the extra lip near the front edge which makes it even easier for water to get to the back and sides

 

[Mr. Clueless]

UPDATE:

I can't remember what we said last time but the damp proofers came out, knocked off plaster where it was getting damp, inserted DPC & replastered.
Since that we've had rain but only had 1 day of really hard-hard rain.

The result was the worst effected side didn't get damp, but the other side still did.

No more serious rain to test it out & see if that is a consistent thing.


I've been in touch with 1 window fitter who basically just said go find a builder (story short).

A second window fitter came out today. Said he'd only suggest everything we've already tried (drain holes, silicone etc).

He kept saying he didn't want to take money off us just to replace like-for-like as the frames are in good condition.

I put it to him that rain could be hitting the cill, bouncing up under the frame & working its way inside & then in to the walls.

He simply said that shouldn't happen.


One thing he said that stood out a mile to me, having worked around businessmen for long enough, is that if he was to replace it then he'd need to make sure it was air tight, water tight etc etc etc.

Now maybe, just maybe, with nobody knowing HOW this water is getting in, he's thinking this could be one huge headache for him & therefore .......... "i don't want to take money from you .........." catch my drift?

Maybe that isn't the case but i could understand him if it was. Trying to treat something with no clear cause? Nightmare.


But regardless, we're sort of back at square 1. Not really knowing where to go with this. We can't do it ourselves but the professionals we're trying don't seem to either want to or be able to do it either.

 

[Mr. Clueless]

I thought i'd seen all the replies on this after my last post. I guess not.

I have no photo of the plaster hacked off with it totally exposed unfortunately. I was at work that day & my wife never took photos with it totally opened up as the bloke was working there & she's not the type to bother him while he's working.

Oh & this second window fitter chap mentioned taking the window out from the outside, not the inside.

I forgot to add to my last post that this could still be a bridged DPC problem.

I understand everything you've said so far, but what do you mean with this bit?

The problem is (90% sure) that the ends of the cills have not been sealed (or silicone has broken down).

Just a thought ...

but while the damp proofers were knocking plaster & generally banging around all walls.

The possibility of any silicone at the sides 'breaking' so it isn't totally sealed? (With the windows only leaking under hard heavy rain)

Just an idea. Feel free to comment on it.

 

[Mr. Clueless]

Had another chap come out (window fitter again). This one had been revising his sales pitch all night i could tell

Anyway i spoke again of the silicone at the ends of the cill & he said it's possible & that a new window should fix it if it's the window that's at fault. Kept telling me if it fails (leaks) in 3 months time then it wont be the window at fault.

I don't know what anyone here thinks to that but my thought is it still could be, quite easily, but i understand what he's trying to say.


The big bonus of this guy is he can do weekends. We don't mind leaving keys out for folk but only really after we've had them in & see how they work & not on their first go. I also wouldn't want to leave a window fitter to it & just HOPE that they put silicone in at the ends.

The second guy was replacing like-for-like & his quote came in at £660. This last guy i just mentioned was going to add a small window opening on the side window & trickle vents on both windows & his quote came in at £875.

Measurements are approx. 2200-x-1470 for the main window, 1500-x-520 for the side window.

I don't know if both prices are fair, one is super cheap, the other quite expensive or what.





He pointed out the stamp on the current windows which was June 2011. My wife seems to remember the previous owner mentioning having the windows replaced & we bought the house late 2013 & they were misted up early on back then.
So if that stamp really was when they were made, so it couldn't possible be fitted before that date then they failed pretty rapidly.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

I will start again, I haven't the time where we left or what i or others suggested. But I will use that photo by Gazman and go from there.

Look at the picture, what you see is two sections of the window, and they are seperate sections, one at the bottom is PVC sill extrusion, the other on top is the pvc window frame, and what we are not seeing is the actual window and openings etc, and they are most probably irrelevant and not from water is seeping through.
So for now assume it is perfect with perfect rubber seal around opening sections to window frame.

So now you look at that picture with deep sight, keep watching it, keep on looking at it, and think hard if you were water, and how could you get inside that house!

So now I found two or three possibilities where water can get in

1. From the edges of the cill if the fitters did not use any frame sealant or mastic so any water splashing on window sill can seep in the joint between the sill and the masonry work (brick wall or plastered window opening) all joints where plastic meets masonry needs a small bead of frame sealant.

2. So if you seal the above and water still seems to seep in, now we look again, there is another possibility, what this Photo does not show us is the front end of the extruded sill, so here the water can roll down its slope, and run along its bottom surface, and enter the wall through capillary, water is funny liquid, it can sometimes defy gravity, because it has another property called surface tension, if the surface tension is greater than the force of gravity, water will remain clinging to things upside down, or run along the bottom of the sill,
So Architects and building engineers overcame this problem by using a grove to the underside of the sills, or a protruding lip in PVC extrusion, check that yours have this water break lip, or in concrete, or stone sills they have a grove to break water fall, if you have a grove to its underside running along the lip of the sill, this will break water's surface tension and then water will drip down rather than climb up, into the grove to get to the other side of the grove, which requires Energy, but if you have no grove to break the water tension, it will run along underside of the sill and enter the wall to sill joint, and capillary action will start drawing water into the masonry if there is no joint sealant between the sill and the masonry wall .

3. iF your sill has no grove, don't worry, you need not make a grove that can weaken your sill, instead you can add a thin bead of plastic rod, failing that use PVC 3 core mains cable as a bead, preferably white, stick it under your sill using some silicone bead, whiles setting you can hold it in place with masking tape patches. when set remove masking tape.

4. seal all joints between window frame, sill, and masonry work.

5. The only other weak point where water can come from is the window frame resting on top of the sill extrusion, you can also seal this from outside with a bead of white silicone,
you don't need to have any air flowing through it, or there is no reason for there to be any untight air space.

Good luck and save you £600 or £800, and have a good holiday instead.

 

[Mr. Clueless]

Thanks.

And that photo from Gaz helped to explain a lot.

The thing is, we actually at the very least need new windows. They're terribly misted up. Surprising when the stamp on the side is 06/11. It's not just in patches either, it's all over every single pane. I know this is no reason to replace the frame also but when the cost for doing that too was another £200-£300 i thought that i would rather get the whole lot done & then "it's done" than try a bit of this, bit of that & then the way this house has gone, it's always the biggest most expensive solution in the end to problems so i'd have to replace (or at least frame out) the frame.

I'm wondering if when the damp proofers were clanging & banging around there they disturbed any of that seal at the ends of the cill. Who knows, maybe they did, maybe it's not possible.



But at the end of the day, we've had this house for coming up 3 years later this year & we don't yet have a complete living room. Some of it has been due to not knowing what to do, some due to my procrastination, some to do we get rid or not, where do we stop, some due to not having the money to do anything at certain points in time, some due to god awful tradesmen. It all adds up, but 3 years is long enough & i am tired, absolutely sick & tired of this being dragged out. I am so fed up with it that it has gotten to the point where i've just said sod it, i will pay the money & go to the extreme & HOPEFULLY it works.

I know some would see this as throwing money away too quickly, but i just want things (big problems) finished, which they were supposed to be at Xmas time after the tanking was complete.


Which i think takes it back to the very beginning of this thread - with Gaz saying the window needs to come out. lol.

I just hope it works.

 

[Mr. Clueless]

I just want to check something since we're having the window installer coming out this week to do whatever it is they do before actual fitting...

Now if i've understood everything correct.......

Green arrow - silicone is applied along this side
Red arrow - run a bead along the length of the cill
Yellow arrow - possibly run a bead here? Is the red & yellow basically the same or do you not bother with the yellow part?
Blue arrow - DON'T silicone here

Just checking whether i'm correct.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

You are drifting away, apply a bead of silicone at all joints between your external masonry surfaces and the pvc sill and frame, once all your external joints are covered with a bead of silicone or mastic, there would be no ingress of water, and so you need not worry about sides, where you cannot apply silicone as that part is already embedded into the wall and is pointless even contemplating that.

Just think where the rain hits the window, and think where likely the water is going to seep in through, all those gaps under the window and the sill, and corners where the sill meets the wall, corners where the frame meets the wall (masonry)

 

[Mr. Clueless]

I thought the red arrow was the back edge that gaz was talking about.
And the green being the edge (of the cill).

I personally won't be there for any of it because I can't get time off work so I can't check.
My wife will be there for the install so she'll need to understand where they need to pay attention with the silicone.

I know they should know already where to do it but we've ended up learning the hard way not to trust that people will do things properly just because they're 'a professional'.

 

[ChrisL1]

Did you manage to get this sorted and if so what did it take? Similar problem here