Water pump stopped in central heating

[fixitflav]

Millions of UPS pumps fitted in boilers.

But they're not all the same pump. There's UPS 15-50, UPS 15-60, UPS2 and UPS3 (which looks like something out of Star Wars) and probably others.

Early Grundfos smart pumps caused electronic failures but that was corrected with special lead, present offering nil issues.

It was only the UPS2 that had this problem AFAIK, but glad to hear it's been fixed, I didn't know. When I first heard about it in 2018, after installing my UPS2, I contacted Grundfos technical dept and they said they weren't aware of a problem. Can't find the correspondence so I guess it was a website query.

BTW, valves on your pump, unless these are well made, majority are not, I have found even the new ones to weep let alone when in service-

What's the current thinking on the best valves for the job? I believe multi-turn gate valves are longer than ball valves, so usually not a straight swap. Also 1/4 turn ball valves seem to be considered a better bet than gates as ordinary isolation valves.

 

[fixitflav]

Just noticed I posted #31 twice

 

[fixitflav]

Why wouldn't you replace the olives?

Because unless they're damaged in some way there's no need to. The new valves will go straight on. You can remove the old ones with a special tool, if you have one, or with a small hacksaw, but need to be careful not to damage the pipe, and it's a bit of a pain. Specially the bottom one close to the floor.

 

[Justin Passing]

Let me give you a little tip, don't even bother trying to undo the big pump nuts, there is no point.

Instead make up the new pump with the two new pump valves using the rubber washers that come with the pump instead of the fibre washers that come with the valves.

Next take out the whole existing pump and valves in one piece by undoing the smaller nuts (with olives), put in the whole pre-assembled pump & valves replacing the nuts and olives if you need too (personally I would not) with a couple of turns of ptfe or smear of jointing paste covering the olive.

The above is of course assuming you have drained as you said you intend.

Good advice. You shouldn't have much trouble springing the pipes apart enough to get the assembly out/in. As long as you use quarter turn pump valves. They all, always leak by the time the pump needs replacing but the gate valve type are longer,
Often the whole assembly will have been rotated and struggled with the past. You might find the olives are in dents in the pipes. Even if not, they may not come off at all easily so don't try. I would strongly suggest something like Hawk White on the olives and where they join with the pipe. Don't put anything on the on the valve nut threads.
With rubber washers the pump nuts don't need to be super tight.
Remember to get the pump the right way up - we've all done that one wrong. You may have to remove the head of the pump (4 hex socket screws) so the electrics are in the right place.

 

[dilalio]

I meant ballofix pump valves will leak from the slotted bit, when you use them... They always do.

 

[fixitflav]

I understand the cheaper one will not be as good quality but if I'm only using it for a tiny fraction of the time a more 'normal' household would, I'd hardly be wearing it out any time soon?

That sounds a good way to go, and to reduce the risk of the pump sticking I would have HW calling 24/7. Then it will come on 1-2 times per day (minimum, if you don't use much HW) and as you have a well-insulated cylinder additional cost will be negligible.

 

[kudos1uk]

Thanks, kudos1uk.

I was just in the process of making up a step-by-step procedure and got a bit stuck with the order on how to attach the new stuff.

Two questions:

1) Removing and attaching the whole unit as one will require moving the pipes by a good few cm, perhaps 4 or 5? Is there usually enough play with the pipes to manipulate them that much?

2) Why wouldn't you replace the olives? Is it because they are so difficult to remove that the gain is likely not worth the effort?

I have ordered (all from amazon) pump, 2 valves, 2 rubber washers, olive removal tool and PTFE tape, total cost £88. I should have it all by end of week.

You won't have to spring it more than 2cm once the nut is undone, obviously if you find you have to force it too much stop but you should easily be able to take that out as one lump especially if you undo both nuts. Those pump nuts will take some shifting, not worth it unless you are forced too.

I would not replace the olives as there will be nothing wrong with them, unless the nut threads are different (rare) there really is no point. You actually stand more chance of getting a water leak by replacing them than not.

 

[MoonMan2]

I like the advice on leaving old olives, that simplifies things. I can easily return the olive removal tool to amazon.

With the 'making extra sure stuff'; is the advice to use White Hawk OR PTFE tape?

Or

Is it, use White Hawk AND PTFE tape?

 

[MoonMan2]

Another question came into my head; if I'm leaving the old olives, it means I need to leave/use the old nuts as well?

 

[DP]

if I'm leaving the old olives, it means I need to leave/use the old nuts as well?

If olive is not removed, how can the cap nut come off

 

[MoonMan2]

Thanks for clarification; proves that by doing a 'thought experiment' and doing this job over-and-over again in my head, I'm realising things.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Another question came into my head; if I'm leaving the old olives, it means I need to leave/use the old nuts as well?

There are ways to remove olives, without damaging the pipe - With a junior hacksaw, cut a slot at right angles to the olive/in line with the pipe. When the cut is deep enough/almost through, insert the tip of a flat bladed screwdriver and turn it. the olive will split.

 

[MoonMan2]

Yes, I saw that in a YouTube video. You can also slam/knock olives off using an adjustable spanner.

Not sure if you've read the whole thread Harry; I purchased an olive removal tool. However, the general consensus of opinion was, if the olives looked 'healthy' and the thread of the new valves matches, then it would be wiser to leave the original olives and nuts on the pipes; attaching new valves over them.

 

[fixitflav]

However, the general consensus of opinion was, if the olives looked 'healthy' and the thread of the new valves matches, then it would be wiser to leave the original olives and nuts on the pipes; attaching new valves over them.

Definitely. For one thing, the nuts may have been tightened enough to slightly distort the pipe wall, giving a potential problem.

 

[DP]

But they're not all the same pump. There's UPS 15-50, UPS 15-60, UPS2 and UPS3 (which looks like something wout of Star Wars) and probably others.

if you look a little deeper, UPS 15-50 or 15-60 is almost identical.
If the front plate that has the data on it, and that was removed, it is easy to tell which is which