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WC Soil Piping needs sorting :-(

4" Through the wall.
Into a branch tee.
Up to durgo in the left hand corner.
Other socket of tee then goes to pan.
Orient branch tee as you can (either vertical or horizontal)
Use Rigid pipe over to pan so you use a multi quick or straight pan con from spigot to pipework - not a flexi pan con.
 
Your diagram shows a wall hung pan.
You don't need to.
Floor standing back to wall.
 
4" Through the wall.
Into a branch tee.
Up to durgo in the left hand corner.
Other socket of tee then goes to pan.
Orient branch tee as you can (either vertical or horizontal)
Use Rigid pipe over to pan so you use a multi quick or straight pan con from spigot to pipework - not a flexi pan con.

Hi ...any chance it can be stated less technically for us simple folk over here??



Are you saying, something like this going to be at the main junction?...

1759444733693.png




Because there obvious issues with the necessity of the stub stack going straight up...

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As I do not want to move the WC anymore forward (its in a small room) - is there some kind of junction which has an offset bend going up vertically off the main junction? - to move the AAV backwards...

1759445995264.png



Or maybe re-word your kind advice, I will try and figure it out.
 

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Arrange the branch so that it point the middle socket up on the left hand side of the cistern and put section of vertical pipe and durgo there.
Continue piping across to go into pan spigot using an m&f elbow if required, then a bit of pipe in the m&f and a multikwik pan con into that
 
Hi, yes - will try figuring out the connections you suggested.

Could you let me know in principle, if the below setups are okay?

(1) The AAV does not have to be attached at the start of the Flush to get air in behind the flush? It will work further away from the flush? (in below example the AAV is before any sink or shower waste)

1759625640068.png




(2) Would the below AAV example work as well? or does the AAV defo have to be before any sink or shower wastes to prevent siphoning?

1759626884619.png
 

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Change this brown 90:

1759651858074.png


For a 45 or shallower, such that you can go straight to the toilet, rotating the toilet coupler to suit

Use waterless traps on your other devices, to dispense with the need for an AAV
 
Change this brown 90:

For a 45 or shallower, such that you can go straight to the toilet, rotating the toilet coupler to suit

Use waterless traps on your other devices, to dispense with the need for an AAV

Thanks. I think I can see what you mean...


1759792525479.png


But...

-It does depend if a 45 angle would land somewhere near the WC soil outlet - maybe?
-There would be more than the normal soil pipe fall - unsure if thats an issue?
-Need wastes for shower room sink/shower & WC sink - looks a bit more awkward on 45 slope?

-This grey elbow inside the current 90 brown elbow (or new one) would provide a boss connection on the garage floor - looks easier for waste connections with the max fall...
1759792961494.png


And....

"Yes, waterless traps do require maintenance, and a faulty or worn-out membrane can cause the trap to fail and leak foul smells. Unlike a traditional water-seal trap that can be refilled, a waterless trap relies on its mechanical components to function correctly"


The AAV can be back-up if needed. A stub can provisioned and capped off as easy to fit whilst lowering the soil pipe. If point solutions on the wastes work, fine, else an AAV can be put on the stub. Thus sounds sensible to plan for it now?

Just welcome knowing if the AAV needs to be in front of any waste connections so it provide air to the flush vacuum?
 
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The 45 was just a guess based on the positioning of the toilet in the pictures (it seemed to be more or less just the other side of the wall), you can get other bends, and even fully adjustable ones like Screfix item 77224

Over that distance and that close to the flushing appliance it won't matter about the angle; soul pipes have shallow angles to prevent water rushing past the solids it's flushed with leaving them behind in the pipe. You're supposed to use larger radius bends when going from a vertical to a horizontal, than is presently installed in your location

As to waterless traps, they can be changed, and in some even just the membrane is changeable if it has ceased to function. I've been using Osma HepVO ones for 12 years now and not had to change one yet, so I'm confident in their reliability. Also have AAVs that have been reliable despite some measure of nay-saying regards them (the smaller diameter ones Screfix stock acquire numerous negative reviews)

Just options. Given that you've already dug a sizeable hole you could extend the hole and the waste into the other room if you wanted to install a swept 90 at the increased floor height

Boss connections can be made anywhere in a run using Screfix item 82795
 
The 45 was just a guess based on the positioning of the toilet in the pictures (it seemed to be more or less just the other side of the wall), you can get other bends, and even fully adjustable ones like Screfix item 77224
Adjustable Bends (Screwfix item 77224 - Floplast Push-Fit 0−90.
Concern is that these are undesirable for installation under a stud floor due to possibility of leaking. I think the thin seals in adjustable fittings are prone to fouling, losing elasticity, and leaking from slight movement. Since the first sign of a leak would be smells under the shower, an inaccessible and adjustable fitting poses a long-term risk.


Over that distance and that close to the flushing appliance it won't matter about the angle; soul pipes have shallow angles to prevent water rushing past the solids it's flushed with leaving them behind in the pipe. You're supposed to use larger radius bends when going from a vertical to a horizontal, than is presently installed in your location
Your saying that the falls are not an issues over these smaller distances? - as long as there is some fall, large or small.


As to waterless traps, they can be changed, and in some even just the membrane is changeable if it has ceased to function. I've been using Osma HepVO ones for 12 years now and not had to change one yet, so I'm confident in their reliability. Also have AAVs that have been reliable despite some measure of nay-saying regards them (the smaller diameter ones Screfix stock acquire numerous negative reviews)
Product: HepVO Waste Traps (e.g., Screwfix item 3962K).
For the sinks seems like a great idea. It is unclear if a HepVO trap can be easily accommodated in the short run between the shower plug hole and the soil pipe. While the membrane in sink wastes is easily replaceable, replacing a failed membrane under a shower, particularly with a stud floor in place, may prove difficult.


Just options. Given that you've already dug a sizeable hole you could extend the hole and the waste into the other room if you wanted to install a swept 90 at the increased floor height

Boss connections can be made anywhere in a run using Screfix item 82795
Not sure I understand this, but am reviewing the 45 degree idea.

A 45 degree bend may be feasible, but some trigonometry is required to precisely determine the pipe's final position. It would save some digging. The setup may involve extending the incoming horizontal run, then using a 45 degree fitting to rise into the WC. The pipe must pass under a stud floor with a shower on top, that is 22cm high, which also should provide adequate space for those strap on waste connections.


Air Admittance Valve (AAV) and Stub Stack
Installing a stub stack for an AAV seems highly desired as a precautionary measure while working on the soil pipe. How can an AAV stub stack be created when using a 45 degree bend? Is it possible to install a 45 branch pipe (e.g., Amazon link example) and orient it such that the fitting provides a 90 degree vertical rise for a 50mm AAV pipe directly behind the shower stud wall? This would provide peace of mind and allow for future venting even if HepVO traps are used.
 
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Concern is that these are undesirable for installation under a stud floor due to possibility of leaking
Not a concern I'd have; it would be backfilled and supported, surely, but other degrees of bends are available if you want a solid one and there is also some measure of flex in every joint, so if you determined that the precise angle was 37 degrees, two 15s would be naturally loose enough that they'd take up the remaining 7. You can also counter rotate them to make small angle changes

Your saying that the falls are not an issues over these smaller distances? - as long as there is some fall, large or small.
Drains have a specific maximum steepness for working effectively, and it's very shallow, nearly flat, because you want the solids to slowly float along at the head of the plug of water emitted by the toilet. Too long of too steep a run, and the water makes its way past the solids, eventually de-floating them and leaving them sat in the pipe. A short angled run that close to the toilet isn't going to be a problem because the solids are going to be at the bottom of the section before the flush has even finished, with water still behind to float them along

It is unclear if a HepVO trap
It doesn't have to be a HepVO, which is an inline device. Plenty of waterless traps exist that are the plug hole too; you can get shower waterless traps where you can change the membrane via the plug hole, for example. For sinks I also like Purus Pum; very low profile
those strap on waste connections.
Those strap bosses don't have to be installed on the top of a pipe. If a pipe ran at 37 degrees and you installed a boss on the top you'd need a 37 degree bend to come level. If you installed the boss on the side of the pipe, you're already level
Is it possible to install a 45 branch pipe
Like bosses, branches don't have to be installed so the bent bit is face up. You can have a 90 branch on its side on any degree of run and it is innately level to which a 90 can be installed to come up

Installing a branch just so you can install an AAV is unnecessary; the waterless traps are already AAVs. It's your money though!
 
Those strap bosses don't have to be installed on the top of a pipe. If a pipe ran at 37 degrees and you installed a boss on the top you'd need a 37 degree bend to come level. If you installed the boss on the side of the pipe, you're already level

Like bosses, branches don't have to be installed so the bent bit is face up. You can have a 90 branch on its side on any degree of run and it is innately level to which a 90 can be installed to come up

So the 50mm waste branches can be stap-on connected to the side of the 110mm soil pipe? Doesn't that risk waste getting caught-up on the entry to the 50mm piping, or any bad 50mm-110m connections leaking if the flush water is going past?- whereas if the strap on was at the top - it wouldn't?

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Installing a branch just so you can install an AAV is unnecessary; the waterless traps are already AAVs. It's your money though!
Thanks. I assume additional cost would be a bit of 50mm piping, a strap-on connection and an 50mm AAV valve - not too much cost? There isn't going to be a lot of control of what get puts down the drains, so it a bit of extra protection is piece of mind - it could go behind the stud wall with access panel to the valve? I assume 50mm AAV is big enough to get some air behind the flush over this short run?


Do welcome being in touch to work out a final design. As long as the angles work out - something like the below with waterless traps?...

1760047484499.png



(it would be better if the 110mm pipe comes through the current hole in the wall without having to go through the WC room floor)
 

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Doesn't that risk waste getting caught-up on the entry to the 50mm piping
No, because you do a good job of the cut, remove swarf and smooth rough edges, and don't jam the waste so far into the soil that it becomes a catch point. If you look down the bore of the soil it should appear smooth all the way down

You'll note that the the boss built into your existing bend is also on the side, not the top

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so it a bit of extra protection is piece of mind
It would be easier to reprogram your mind to see the lack of necessity for another AAV when you've already fitted three, and don't have any water filled traps that can have the water sucked out of them, but if you insist, why not boss a HepVO on behind the toilet ?

I assume 50mm AAV is big enough to get some air behind the flush over this short run?
The toilet itself also admits air, so the situation is nowhere near as desperate as a multitude of armchair/keyboard warriors may have led you to believe. Why not try without and then fit one after if it turns out there is a problem that needs solving?

something like the below with waterless traps?
Yeah that would work. Not sure I'd bury the AAV in a wall though
 

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