What do you think will be new/changed in the 18th edition?

[ban-all-sheds]

Which means that at some point, you want an extra socket on an existing RFC and it's no longer compliant.

It would not be non-compliant to add accessories, or spurs or new sections into an already existing RFC.

It would also throw up a (C3 I guess) item on an EICR which would be of concern to us landlords who like to have a "clean sheet" (if only for a**e covering with "difficult" tenants).

Only if it could be shown that the RFC had been created after the cut-off date. Which I guess in practice might have to mean could not be proved to have been created before it.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I've come across 16A radials

I've come across dozens and dozens.

In France, Belgium, Holland, Spain, Italy, Germany .....

 

[JohnW2]

Whilst I suppose that some sort of 'phasing out''has already commenced, in that at least some people have moved their favours to radials in recent times, I would think that, even in new installations, ring finals remain by far the most common sockets circuits - isn't that true?

Outside of a few "specials", I don't think I've seen or come across a single instance of a 32A radial. I've come across 16A radials - in both my properties where the garage sockets are really just a "token gesture".

You're probably right - and, as I implied, there is no indication that the use of ring finals is going to substantially reduce for a very long time unless that is 'forced' on us (by regs).

I'm not sure about the 'why' of that - could it be simply that (as has been suggested) 2.5mm² cable is fractionally easier to handle, in some situations, than 4mm² - or is it perhaps just habit/tradition?

"Tradition" - for as long as pretty well most sparkies have been in work, sockets have been 13A on a ring final.

Again, you're probably right - and, as above, nothing short of 'being forced' (by regs) is likely to change that - at least within most of our lifetimes!

It must also be 2 or 3 decades since I recall reading in the IEE rags about the discussions around a common European socket - it would have to be unfused or our neighbours wouldn't accept it, and then there was the issue of how to adapt existing RFCs to suit. And 20 or 30 years later I see that harmonisation effort got a long way

It's not hard to see why. A change to unfused plugs would require such a major change to UK conceptual thinking that it's hard to see how agreement could ever be reached - not the least because the 'transition period' (presumably many decades) would be pretty chaotic!

It would be fascinating to know (or to try to predict) what the thinking and practices will be in, say, 100 years time, and how the folk of that era will regard the 'past practices' of the early 21st century!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Which means that at some point, you want an extra socket on an existing RFC and it's no longer compliant.

It would not be non-compliant to add accessories, or spurs or new sections into an already existing RFC.

As I said, it would require some fairly unprecedented 'dispensations' in the regs, since it would have to make it clear that existing ring finals (including any post-change additions/modifications to them) would be compliant with the then-current regs (even though new ones wouldn't) - otherwise they would attract the C3s (or equivalent).

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

As I said, it would require some fairly unprecedented 'dispensations' in the regs....

Well, heaven forbid that we should ever do anything unprecedented...

 

[plugwash]

A change to unfused plugs would require such a major change to UK conceptual thinking that it's hard to see how agreement could ever be reached - not the least because the 'transition period' (presumably many decades) would be pretty chaotic!

If they were prepared to accept a level of protection for small flexes comparable to what they have in most of europe (lower than we have now) and a slightly higher cost of sockets it would probablly be doable with a transition mechanism something like.

Stage 1: add fuses to sockets and change the shuttering mechanism so it will accept europlugs. Make sure that it won't accept schuko/french plugs.
Stage 2: change double sockets to have one UK style socket and one french style socket. Switch low power class 2 equipment.
Stage 3: Switch high power and class 1 equipment to german/french hybrid style plugs.
Stage 4: deprecate BS1363 and move entirely to french style sockets.

You would probablly want a couple of decades for each stage to settle in before going to the next.

 

[JohnW2]

A change to unfused plugs would require such a major change to UK conceptual thinking that it's hard to see how agreement could ever be reached - not the least because the 'transition period' (presumably many decades) would be pretty chaotic!

If they were prepared to accept a level of protection for small flexes comparable to what they have in most of europe (lower than we have now) and a slightly higher cost of sockets it would probablly be doable with a transition mechanism something like.
Stage 1: add fuses to sockets and change the shuttering mechanism so it will accept europlugs. Make sure that it won't accept schuko/french plugs.
Stage 2: change double sockets to have one UK style socket and one french style socket. Switch low power class 2 equipment.
Stage 3: Switch high power and class 1 equipment to german/french hybrid style plugs.
Stage 4: deprecate BS1363 and move entirely to french style sockets.

Quite - but I reckon that lot counts as "a major change to UK conceptual thinking"!! Also, and returning slightly to topic, I presume that ring finals would probably have to 'go' somewhere during that process (and there would undoubtedly still be some still 'out there' 50+ years after they had been 'deprecated').

You would probablly want a couple of decades for each stage to settle in before going to the next.

Again, indeed. As I said, it would probably take a transition period of several decades to complete the process. The question/problem here is, even if that process were started 'tomorrow', how many (if any!) of us would be around in 80 years' time to see if your postulated process had happened and been completed!

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

Stage 1: add fuses to sockets and change the shuttering mechanism so it will accept europlugs. Make sure that it won't accept schuko/french plugs.
Stage 2: change double sockets to have one UK style socket and one french style socket. Switch low power class 2 equipment.
Stage 3: Switch high power and class 1 equipment to german/french hybrid style plugs.
Stage 4: deprecate BS1363 and move entirely to french style sockets.

You would probablly want a couple of decades for each stage to settle in before going to the next.

I disagree. Any change has to be a "this new socket is allowable for anything" from day 1 - what no-one wants is to have a mix where you never know what you need and it changes every few years. As it is, having two different sockets is going to get most people worked up - whatever anyone says about the merits or otherwise of our plugs, we do at least have one standard plug/socket and barring a few exceptions (like people putting 5A sockets in for some lights) you can take any appliance and plug it in anywhere.
I guess the first stage after adding the new plug/socket will be that new appliances with the new plug will get fitted with an adapter - like a lot of kit comes with a Euro plug and an adapter to 13A plug. It'll be quite a while I'd have thought before new sockets got installed.

With work I once went to Italy. They have two of their own plugs, plus the various ones that get imported. So consequently they tend to use a lot of adapters and/or extension leads with multi-standard sockets. I suspect the idea is supposed to be that the smaller plugs are on a circuit with a smaller fuse/breaker (like our old round pin on either a 5A or 15A fuse) - but the end result is that adapters get used so everything (regardless of flex size) will be on 16A breakers (I assume).

The other issue is that it has to be a completely new design. If we propose adopting (say) the German one then everyone else (especially the French) will object on principle. Essentially everyone will be in "yes we should standardise on one plug/socket - as long as you adopt ours" mode. So the only way I can see it happening is if we can persuade everyone to adopt something new - with no-one gaining an advantage.

 

[JohnW2]

The other issue is that it has to be a completely new design. If we propose adopting (say) the German one then everyone else (especially the French) will object on principle. Essentially everyone will be in "yes we should standardise on one plug/socket - as long as you adopt ours" mode. So the only way I can see it happening is if we can persuade everyone to adopt something new - with no-one gaining an advantage.

True - but that ain't going to happen, is it?

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

True - but that ain't going to happen, is it?

Exactly - it's only been talked about for 3 decades or more

 

[JohnW2]

True - but that ain't going to happen, is it?

Exactly - it's only been talked about for 3 decades or more

Sure, but isn't it a bit silly/naive of them to even bother wasting time talking about it when it is pretty apparent that it's 'never' going to happen (say, within the working lifetimes of anyone reading this!)?

Kind Regards, John

 

[securespark]

Interesting debate on the abolition of Ring Final Circuits.

No-one has mentioned my bugbear:

That they are open to abuse left, right and centre.

A radial by comparison is child's play.

And far quicker and easier to test and fault-find.

 

[plugwash]

The other issue is that it has to be a completely new design. If we propose adopting (say) the German one then everyone else (especially the French) will object on principle. Essentially everyone will be in "yes we should standardise on one plug/socket - as long as you adopt ours" mode. So the only way I can see it happening is if we can persuade everyone to adopt something new - with no-one gaining an advantage.

The french/german issue was solved by making hybrid plugs. So while french and german sockets are different the plugs are the same.

As I understand it most of the EU has gradually fallen into line with the french or german standards (sometimes in a hybrid form). We are one of the last holdouts requiring sellers to include our own plugs.

Notice how equipment often comes with a british plug and a german/french plug but not anything else.

 

[JohnW2]

Interesting debate on the abolition of Ring Final Circuits. ... No-one has mentioned my bugbear: That they are open to abuse left, right and centre. A radial by comparison is child's play. And far quicker and easier to test and fault-find.

There are certainly pros and cons, and the things you mention are certainly amongst the downsides of rings. They are clearly much easier/simpler to test.

However, radials, particularly 32A ones, are also susceptible to some abuses - such as branches/spurs from unfused 2.5mm² branches/spurs, so one still has to keep one's eyes open!

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

it's hard enough terminating multiple 2.5mm cables in some of the socket/backbox combinations - 4mm can't be easier

It is.