That's what I suspected you meant, but I don't understand your point. Why should submitting a building notice make that electrician any more (or less) "responsible as if he were the installer"??
Kind Regards, John
What kind of conduit should I be using?
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Kind Regards, John
Sorry JohnW2, the electrician would be equally responsible either way, I'm being muddly.
My concern was that, if there is no notification involved, and the electrician is obviously not advising the OP, the electrician may be happy to sign off anything provided he gets paid, resulting in an installation that is not fully compliant, but has been documented as though it were. Or, conversely, the electrician might apply higher standards than those we feel are acceptable on this forum, and leave the OP on a sticky wicket.
If the OP has contacted an electrician who had agreed to sign it off as if it were the electrician's own work, it would be better for the two of them to discuss and agree these details between them before any work commences (which, for all we know, may be the case).
I would have hoped that by submitting an application through BC, the electrician would be required to inspect the installation at various stages to ensure full compliance. Of course, the electrician may be in agreement to do this anyway, but, were I the OP, I would want to ensure this is the case.
My concern was that, if there is no notification involved, and the electrician is obviously not advising the OP, the electrician may be happy to sign off anything provided he gets paid, resulting in an installation that is not fully compliant, but has been documented as though it were. Or, conversely, the electrician might apply higher standards than those we feel are acceptable on this forum, and leave the OP on a sticky wicket.
If the OP has contacted an electrician who had agreed to sign it off as if it were the electrician's own work, it would be better for the two of them to discuss and agree these details between them before any work commences (which, for all we know, may be the case).
I would have hoped that by submitting an application through BC, the electrician would be required to inspect the installation at various stages to ensure full compliance. Of course, the electrician may be in agreement to do this anyway, but, were I the OP, I would want to ensure this is the case.
The rules are:
1. Use an electrician who is signed up to one of the Competent Person Schemes (CPS). He is ONLY allowed to notify the works through his scheme (and hence to LABC) if he has done and tested the work himself. Otherwise he cannot certify that the work complies with BS7671 OR Building Regulations. You may be able to find a sparky who will let you do teh donkey work under his guidance, to reduce the labour element.
2. The competent DIYer first notifies the works to LABC and pays the appropriate Building Notice fee. The local authority will want to inspect the works at various stages and (depending on the local authority) they will expect YOU to fully test the installation using all that expensive calibtrated test equipment that you have (?) You'll then present them with a completed BS7671 Installation Certificate and LABC then will issue a completion certificate.
There is NO middle ground where an electrician can "sign off" and notify works that you have done unless he lies on a legal document.
1. Use an electrician who is signed up to one of the Competent Person Schemes (CPS). He is ONLY allowed to notify the works through his scheme (and hence to LABC) if he has done and tested the work himself. Otherwise he cannot certify that the work complies with BS7671 OR Building Regulations. You may be able to find a sparky who will let you do teh donkey work under his guidance, to reduce the labour element.
2. The competent DIYer first notifies the works to LABC and pays the appropriate Building Notice fee. The local authority will want to inspect the works at various stages and (depending on the local authority) they will expect YOU to fully test the installation using all that expensive calibtrated test equipment that you have (?) You'll then present them with a completed BS7671 Installation Certificate and LABC then will issue a completion certificate.
There is NO middle ground where an electrician can "sign off" and notify works that you have done unless he lies on a legal document.
Many LABCs (including mine) will appoint an electrician to do the I&T on their behalf, but at your expense (the LABC fee will be higher than for a standard building notice). So yes - but technically only if appointed by the LABC, not by you. OTOH, there may well be LABCs who would be happy for you to appoint and pay him directly and accept his EIC (and then pay a lower fee to the LABC). You'd need to talk to your LABC so see what their policy is, they all seem to make up their own rules.
Yes, but if it's notifiable work, then notification is involved - either by submitting an (expensive) building notice or via the electrician's 'scheme' operator if he is a member of a 'self-certifying scheme'. Hence, (assuming that the electrician is a self-certifying one) the 'signing off' you refer to is, in fact, 'notification'.
Of course - which is why others have expressed or implied surprise that the OP needs to ask fairly basic questions here.
As above, if he is a 'self-certifying' electrician ('Part P registered' as some people call it), it would seemingly be crazy to submit an (expensive) building notice in addition to the electrician doing his own (very cheap) 'notification' - the only difference would be a lot of extra cost with the former approach.
Kind Regards, John
There are on that link I gave to you, walls/floors
PrenticeBoyofDerry";p="3091999 said:
Regarding the electrician its one of my mates dads.
My mate came over to see my new house. I walked him though the house he knows what im like and said he had told his old man about me rewiring it and that he said to let me know when ive finished. Leave it all on show and he will come over and check / test it all for me. And sign it off as a part P electrician.
I know understand why somone would look at the install at different stages. All the ceiling are off. The floorboards will be off where cables have been run on the ground floor. Everything will still be on show in the loft.
The only place that cables will be hidden is up the walls to the sockets and switches.
So every electrician needs to tell building control they are rewiring a house?
How about all these people that have had a house rewired. Or buy a house thats been rewired and come to sell it. Realize they haven't got any certificates.
And then have to employ a part P electrician to sign it off. Its signed off and all is good. everyones happy.
So whats the problem with me installing it. then getting it signed off by a part P electrician.
Its just getting ridiculous. I agree with them making sure its safe. But whats stopping me keeping and living in my house with doggy 60 year old wiring its got at the moment.
What are they even going to do if I rewire my house. Then get it tested. How are they even going to find out?
I do shop fitting. Half the debenhams I work with have 30 year old wiring jobs and switches.
House wiring now is safe guarded everywhere.
If its so dangerous for me to rewire my house why the hell are people free to carry out repair work on there cars completely unregulated with only 12 month safety checks. Thousand of people die in car crash's each year. Hundreds of thousands get very badly injured yet any tom dick of harry is free to change a wheel. Work on breaks steering ect
Im an ex mechanic and automotive electrician. body shop technician and Now currently a floor layer. Ex furnes probe technician.
Im very capable of rewiring my house safely and i'm currently doing all the re search and tieing up the loose ends.
Its starting to wind me up how much I need to get building control involved while doing my house up.
Surly carry out the rewire. Get a qualified electrician to check it over and test it is more than good enough?
What are building control even going to do?
Im fairly confident I could carry out the rewire. Ring them up or not even tell them untill it comes to selling the house and the worse that would happen is Id have to get it checked tested and signed off?
Every building site electrician / shop fit electrician has told me just to get it done then get it checked over buy my mates old man.
My mate came over to see my new house. I walked him though the house he knows what im like and said he had told his old man about me rewiring it and that he said to let me know when ive finished. Leave it all on show and he will come over and check / test it all for me. And sign it off as a part P electrician.
I know understand why somone would look at the install at different stages. All the ceiling are off. The floorboards will be off where cables have been run on the ground floor. Everything will still be on show in the loft.
The only place that cables will be hidden is up the walls to the sockets and switches.
So every electrician needs to tell building control they are rewiring a house?
How about all these people that have had a house rewired. Or buy a house thats been rewired and come to sell it. Realize they haven't got any certificates.
And then have to employ a part P electrician to sign it off. Its signed off and all is good. everyones happy.
So whats the problem with me installing it. then getting it signed off by a part P electrician.
Its just getting ridiculous. I agree with them making sure its safe. But whats stopping me keeping and living in my house with doggy 60 year old wiring its got at the moment.
What are they even going to do if I rewire my house. Then get it tested. How are they even going to find out?
I do shop fitting. Half the debenhams I work with have 30 year old wiring jobs and switches.
House wiring now is safe guarded everywhere.
If its so dangerous for me to rewire my house why the hell are people free to carry out repair work on there cars completely unregulated with only 12 month safety checks. Thousand of people die in car crash's each year. Hundreds of thousands get very badly injured yet any tom dick of harry is free to change a wheel. Work on breaks steering ect
Im an ex mechanic and automotive electrician. body shop technician and Now currently a floor layer. Ex furnes probe technician.
Im very capable of rewiring my house safely and i'm currently doing all the re search and tieing up the loose ends.
Its starting to wind me up how much I need to get building control involved while doing my house up.
Surly carry out the rewire. Get a qualified electrician to check it over and test it is more than good enough?
What are building control even going to do?
Im fairly confident I could carry out the rewire. Ring them up or not even tell them untill it comes to selling the house and the worse that would happen is Id have to get it checked tested and signed off?
Every building site electrician / shop fit electrician has told me just to get it done then get it checked over buy my mates old man.
That's the law.
You may think it stupid.
So either abide by it or ignore it.
If you can rewire a house correctly, what are you doing here, asking?
You may think it stupid.
So either abide by it or ignore it.
If you can rewire a house correctly, what are you doing here, asking?
I will be able to rewire a house correctly.
That doesn't mean I wont have to research certain little things to make sure im doing it to the correct standard.
That doesn't mean I wont have to research certain little things to make sure im doing it to the correct standard.
Yes it does.
What about the 'little things' you don't know exist.
What about the 'little things' you don't know exist.
That it what the law requires - and is the same for anyone rewiring a house, electrician or not.
Not possible - the only option if the work was not notified is to apply to building control for a regularisation certificate, which typically costs 2x more than notification in the first place. Building control will want to inspect the work before the certificate is issued.
This is exactly the same as for any other work which should have been notified but was not such as building an extension, replacing windows, installing heating appliances, adding a toilet, modifications to the internal layout of the building, and many other things.
As for those that sell their house and don't have the relevant documents - they could pay for regularisation, pay for the appropriate testing to be done, reduce the selling price or do all of those things.
The terms of the scheme they belong to do not permit such activity.
Nothing.
They probably won't.
30 year old wiring could easily be safe. Or not. All depends on how well it was installed originally, and if it has been maintained/repaired correctly.
Part P doesn't apply there anyway.
Untrue - the majority of electrical work in homes is totally unregulated and anyone can have a go at it whenever they like regardless of their competence to do so.
The exceptions being new circuits, consumer units and certain things in bathrooms have to be notified to building control - but even then, anyone can do it.
Yes, people can do those things, just as they can repair or do most electrical work in their home.
However if you wanted to put a different engine in your car, paint it a different colour or convert it to use a different fuel, certain organisations would have to be notified, such as the DVLA and your insurance company.
The normal process is to submit a building notice or full plans which describe ALL of the work being done to the property. BC will then visit as required to inspect at various stages. For some works they may require documentation such as electrical testing, structural calculations, details of the exact materials used, etc.
At the end they provide a completion certificate.
That is it. It really isn't difficult or complex at all.
Good enough for what? To ensure it's safe - probably. To comply with the law - no.
Theoretically they could prosecute you for non-notification. In reality, probably nothing.
Carry on then. You have been told what the law requires - if you choose to ignore it, no one here cares.
That cannot be satisfactorily answered without insults and rudeness. Therefore there is no reply.
Lots of people on this forum have given you helpful advice, especially the post prior to this. A thank you would have been nice. I can fully understand your exasperation (especially as I'm in almost the same boat, or am about to be), but it isn't anyone on this forum's fault.
If I were, hypothetically speaking, living with some friends in a house that was re-wired in 1960, by a ten year old, using second hand rubber cable, would I hypothetically make minor repairs when things went wrong? Would I, hypothetically speaking, correct a situation caused by a recent so-called electrician where one end of a ring main was in a B32 breaker, and the other in a B20 breaker, instead of being in the same B32 one. Very probably! it would be safer than non-action.
Would I be breaking the law? Possibly.
Would I have a go at people on this forum if I didn't like it? No.
In which case, one solution may be to buy this, you can get as annoyed with it as you like, and ask you mate's dad about the bits you don't understand, may take some time to read:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Electricians-Guide-17th-Wiring-Regulations/dp/0953788571
If I were, hypothetically speaking, living with some friends in a house that was re-wired in 1960, by a ten year old, using second hand rubber cable, would I hypothetically make minor repairs when things went wrong? Would I, hypothetically speaking, correct a situation caused by a recent so-called electrician where one end of a ring main was in a B32 breaker, and the other in a B20 breaker, instead of being in the same B32 one. Very probably! it would be safer than non-action.
Would I be breaking the law? Possibly.
Would I have a go at people on this forum if I didn't like it? No.
In which case, one solution may be to buy this, you can get as annoyed with it as you like, and ask you mate's dad about the bits you don't understand, may take some time to read:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Electricians-Guide-17th-Wiring-Regulations/dp/0953788571
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