What's the best way to do this? (UK Electrics Query)

[SamuelHolmes82]

Hi folks, first time poster here!

In February my wife and I will move into my grandmother's old house. It's a lovely, big old house from 1952, with thick walls (this is relevant).

Mum remembers the house being rewired in the mid to late 90s, but there are not (and never have been) enough power sockets! (Except in the kitchen which was totally re-done around 2007).

For example - in the hall downstairs there is but 1 single surface mounted socket. We'll need at least 4 sockets in the hall to power a lamp, cordless phone and broadband router, with 1 spare.

In the room we'll use as our living room, there are two double sockets, we may need one more set of two.

Now, as regards the single surface mounted socket in the hall, I know enough about electrics to upgrade this to a double surface mounted socket myself. However, if we wanted to fit extra sockets, either in the hall or elsewhere in the house, I believe this would be a fairly big job! I don't have the confidence or expertise to do it all myself (and in any case, what there's Part P to think about - which I assume applies here in Northern Ireland) so I don't really want to risk it - heard too many horror stories of fires or electrocutions, both of which scare me!

Ok, so, my plan in the rooms where I don't have enough sockets would be (at least until we get an electrician to come in and do it all) as follows:

I plan to upgrade the single surface mounted socket in the hall.

I plan, in any of the rooms where I need extra sockets, to buy a switched, RCD protected multi way trailing socket, and run the cable around the wall, then once it is in the position I want I'll use cable clips to tack it to the wall.

I'm aware of the dangers of overloading aforementioned multi way adaptors, which is why I will only have low powered devices plugged in (the most powerful device plugged in is likely to be a vacuum cleaner, but this will not be used constantly, or with other devices running at the same time).

So big question is, would it be safe to use one of these multiway adaptors, and would it be ok to tack the wire to the wall? I know you can't daisychain them, but is it ok to plug two into a double socket if necessary (unlikely that it will be).

Thanks for your help!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

with thick walls (this is relevant).

I must have missed the part in the rest of your post where this relevance was explained....

However, if we wanted to fit extra sockets, either in the hall or elsewhere in the house, I believe this would be a fairly big job!

Nobody can say without seeing it.

I don't have the confidence or expertise to do it all myself

An excess of caution is definitely better than an excess of uninformed how-hard-can-it-possibly-be-anybody-can-do-it-bravado, but if you wanted to learn how to do that sort of work yourself you could. But maybe not in the timescales you need.

(and in any case, what there's Part P to think about - which I assume applies here in Northern Ireland)

Actually it doesn't, but just because the law does not explicitly require electrical work to be done safely in your house that does not mean that it is not a BGI.

The laws of physics are the same everywhere, and flaky electrics are just as much a no-no in Newcastle, Co Down as Newcastle, Tyne&Wear, Newcastle, Jamaica or Newcastle, NSW....

Ok, so, my plan in the rooms where I don't have enough sockets would be (at least until we get an electrician to come in and do it all) as follows:

It is a good idea to live in a property for a while before getting an electrician to come in and rewire the place, as only doing that will tell you where you want sockets & switches etc, and let you give proper consideration of the points made here:

//www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:how-many-sockets-and-circuits-should-i-have

(That'll please JohnW2..)

I plan, in any of the rooms where I need extra sockets, to buy a switched, RCD protected multi way trailing socket,

Rewired in the mid- to late-90's - no RCD protection on the sockets already?

I'm aware of the dangers of overloading aforementioned multi way adaptors,

You can't - they have 13A fuses in their plugs.

So big question is, would it be safe to use one of these multiway adaptors, and would it be ok to tack the wire to the wall?

Better to clip it to the wall than run it under the carpet, but if it lies on the floor against the wall and it won't get trodden on/tripped over/trundled on by furniture/tugged at by monkeys then there's no pressing need to clip it.

How long before Mr Sparky is invited round to inhale through his teeth whilst slowly shaking his head?

I know you can't daisychain them,

You can - the first one will have a 13A fuse in the plug.

but is it ok to plug two into a double socket if necessary (unlikely that it will be).

Actually that is not a good idea, as a double socket can't necessarily cope with 26A - the BS standard only requires them to be able to handle 20A without getting hot and bothered. If you must plug two in then change the fuses in the plugs to 10A.

 

[SamuelHolmes82]

Thank you ban-all-sheds for your information! I have some further comments in relation to your answers though!

with thick walls (this is relevant).

I must have missed the part in the rest of your post where this relevance was explained....

Ooops, sorry! I must have forgotten to put that bit in - the thick walls are relevant because they are VERY hard to work with - my dad once hung several pictures for my grandmother and burnt out a drill in the process! The relevance of this is that if we wanted to put in flush sockets and have the wires buried in the wall it could be very difficult to cut away at the masonry! Drilling holes in a wall to mount sockets and trunking could probably be slightly easier

However, if we wanted to fit extra sockets, either in the hall or elsewhere in the house, I believe this would be a fairly big job!

Nobody can say without seeing it.

Well I know that, but I believe it will be a big job because I know that it will involve adding spurs, or extending the ring main, neither of which I am that confident about doing myself! I bet an electrician probably wouldn't regard it as a big job!

I don't have the confidence or expertise to do it all myself

An excess of caution is definitely better than an excess of uninformed how-hard-can-it-possibly-be-anybody-can-do-it-bravado, but if you wanted to learn how to do that sort of work yourself you could. But maybe not in the timescales you need.

I'm quite happy to learn how to do it myself!

(and in any case, what there's Part P to think about - which I assume applies here in Northern Ireland)

Actually it doesn't, but just because the law does not explicitly require electrical work to be done safely in your house that does not mean that it is not a BGI.

So you're saying Part P DOESN'T apply here? Didn't know that! However I do know, from what electrician friends (and my dad who is a bit of a DIY Whizz) have taught me, that it is NEVER a good idea for amateurs to try electrical work without knowing how to do it safely. But what does BGI mean?

I plan, in any of the rooms where I need extra sockets, to buy a switched, RCD protected multi way trailing socket,

Rewired in the mid- to late-90's - no RCD protection on the sockets already?

Well, this is what I am unsure about. I know the house WAS rewired when I was a child/teenager, but I am unsure as to whether or not RCD protection WAS fitted, and I haven't yet explored the consumer unit to find out.

I'm aware of the dangers of overloading aforementioned multi way adaptors,

You can't - they have 13A fuses in their plugs.

So why then are we always told (at school in technology class, and by Health & Safety representatives in work) that we should never overload trailing sockets? In fact, I was once told by a H&S rep that if he had his own way, NOBODY would be allowed to use them!

So big question is, would it be safe to use one of these multiway adaptors, and would it be ok to tack the wire to the wall?

Better to clip it to the wall than run it under the carpet, but if it lies on the floor against the wall and it won't get trodden on/tripped over/trundled on by furniture/tugged at by monkeys then there's no pressing need to clip it.

Duly noted - I just thought of clipping it because it looks neater, and I like things to look neat.

How long before Mr Sparky is invited round to inhale through his teeth whilst slowly shaking his head?

Not sure what you mean by that!

I know you can't daisychain them,

You can - the first one will have a 13A fuse in the plug.

Again - why then are we told not to?

but is it ok to plug two into a double socket if necessary (unlikely that it will be).

Actually that is not a good idea, as a double socket can't necessarily cope with 26A - the BS standard only requires them to be able to handle 20A without getting hot and bothered. If you must plug two in then change the fuses in the plugs to 10A.

OK so basically plugging more than one into a double socket would mean that I have a lower power rating available? Understood.

 

[Aragorn84]

I've never really understood the trailing socket thing. I've chained them together for years, because as BAS said, your still protected by a fuse rated at 13A.

I suspect part of the issue is that several medium power devices could add up to say 14 or 15A, and the fuse would likely never blow (or at least would take a long time to) at those levels, yet the plug would probably get very hot.

I guess its easier to simply make everyone think that any chaining of trailing sockets is bad, but TBH that doesnt make much sense as you could just as easily overload a single 4way strip by connecting the washing machine, dishwasher, microwave and tumble dryer to it.

 

[Iggifer]

Untitled

• Iggifer
• 30 Sep 2012
• 5

plug cut off an overloaded extension lead (I really need to get round to taking a photo of the inside)

You can overload them to the point where they will melt the plugtop and potentially start a fire

 

[Aragorn84]

but chaining them doesnt alter that?

As i explained above, you could easily overload a standard 4 way on its own by connecting a stupid load to it.

And similarly you could daisy chain 12 together and only draw a few amps...

 

[OwainDIYer]

Ooops, sorry! I must have forgotten to put that bit in - the thick walls are relevant because they are VERY hard to work with - my dad once hung several pictures for my grandmother and burnt out a drill in the process! The relevance of this is that if we wanted to put in flush sockets and have the wires buried in the wall it could be very difficult to cut away at the masonry! Drilling holes in a wall to mount sockets and trunking could probably be slightly easier

Sir requires a decent SDS drill. Will cost you around £100+ for corded and a lot more for cordless, but will go through anything like a hot knife through low-fat spread.

Extra deep back boxes and crimp connectors are useful for extending the ring from existing socket locations to new sockets, with all sockets properly on the ring.

If your existing consumer unit does not have RCD protection to current standards then that is a bit more of an involved job.

 

[ericmark]

The 13A plug was redesigned to make it safer which resulted in less metal being used where plastic sleeves were added to the two live pins. This means it is a problem for the plug to radiate or otherwise get rid of the heat generated by the fuse. For a short time they can deal with the heat for example boiling a kettle. But for an extended time with for example an electric fire they will overheat.

With extension leads with multi sockets one can end up with 3kW draw for an extended time which can over heat the plug. Using a smaller fuse will remove this problem. Although 3A and 13A are the preferred sizes, 1A, 2A, 5A, 7A and 10A are also for sale. As to if using a smaller fuse helps I am not sure? The fuse wire all fuses at the same temperature so a 1A fuse taking 1A will be around the same temp as a 13A taking 13A in theroy although I will admit it seems to only cause problems with the larger fuses.

I think free air around the plug is more important. I see nothing wrong with having ovens and immersion heaters on plug and socket for easy of maintenance but I would use the old 15A plug and socket which since not fused will not heat up the same way but does need protecting with a 16A MCB in the consumer unit.

The fused connection unit (FCU) is bigger than a plug and so can get rid to the heat better. Using a FCU to supply sockets will therefore remove the fuse damage problem. This is referred to as a fused spur which can feed many sockets. Also using a RCD FCU you can also add RCD protection.

So although similar to using extension leads with multi sockets using a FCU feeding multi sockets removes the overheat problem with the 13A fuse in the plug.

One has to do a risk assessment if unlikely to large items plugged in the the cheap multi socket extension if however it may reach the limit on a regular basis the use FCU.

 

[Aragorn84]

With extension leads with multi sockets one can end up with 3kW draw for an extended time which can over heat the plug.

Many companies sell 3KW portable heaters with a standard 13A plug on the end?

Are you suggesting all of these are unsafe and will overheat?

 

[SimonH2]

Many companies sell 3KW portable heaters with a standard 13A plug on the end?

Are you suggesting all of these are unsafe and will overheat?

Yes, they can indeed.

Back to the OPs questions.
Converting a single to a double should be simple enough, the hardest part is probably doing it without damaging the decor and incurring the wrath of SWMBO. If it isn't a spur itself, then it should be OK to simply take a spur off it and add another double alongside. But for the list of low power devices given, running them all from a 4 way lead will not be a problem - though the aesthetics isn't brilliant.

Using multi-way leads isn't inherently bad - I use loads of them at work, but then that's for IT equipment rating (mostly) for a few watts, some of the items only take 4W ! I did have to take a 4way out of the kitchen though - someone had 3 kettles (it's a shared space, multiple companies, and we have our own kettles etc) in one 4way

However, once you start to work on the circuit, then things need to meet current regs - and that means you'll be needing to add RCD protection. If you have a fuseboard rather than a CU with circuit breakers ("trip switches") in it then you'll have to replace the board - there other ways, but replacing the board is probably the best long term option. If it's already a CU then it may be possible to convert it (by replacing each MCB with an RCBO) - but it may be costly, and it may not be possible if it's obsolete and compatible devices are no longer available.

 

[Astra99]

It was mentioned that a "Health and Safety Representative" stated that if he had his way, no-one would be allowed to use trailing sockets. This is typical of the "You know nothing, I know what I am talking about because I have done a three-day course" people who, parrot fashion, can regurgitate what they have been told to say. In my "computer room" I have three six-way trailers daisy-chained. Total load which everything switched on? Ten point eight amps! I'll bet anyone a quid Mr. H&S would s**t himself if he saw that setup, but it is well under the maximum! I will agree that Mr. Bodger will buy a six-way trailer and plug six high-load items in. Problem there is when the fuse blows, he will replace it with a nail! You cannot legislate for total stupidity. High time we got back to the days of yore when COMMON SENSE held sway, and Jobsworth and Co were given short shrift!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

my dad once hung several pictures for my grandmother and burnt out a drill in the process!

What sort of drill?

No one which was fit for purpose, I imagine.

Sir requires a decent SDS drill.

Will cost you around £100+ for corded and a lot more for cordless

Hmm. You might need to budget a bit more than that for a decent 4kg-or-so drill, even on eBay.

Useful tip: Get yourself a site transformer, there are far more 110v tools in that class around than 230v - e.g. right now eBay is showing 9 Bosch GBH 4 DFEs, only 1 of them is 230v.


I've never used a cordless drill of that sort of size, but I'd be concerned about how heavy it would be - corded ones are no lightweights, so by the time you've added a stonking 28 or 32v battery....