Whats this setup? 4mm from meter!?

[Lectrician]

I am of the opinion that they work by receiving a signal, the signal carrying a bit of data which through an algorithm in the teleswitch, produces a key for the next transmission.

The only reason I say this is that every so often a teleswitch will miss a night for some reason, and then miss every night until a metering guy attends.

My assumption anyway!

 

[JohnW2]

3) It could be detected by statistical anaysis, so you'd have to be very restrained as to how much you actually abstracted.

I suspect that's the crunch. Suppliers undoubtedly have a pretty good idea of the expected range of cheap rate/peak rate ratios, and their systems are probably set up to ring bells if any consumer is substantially deviant from those expectations, thereby triggering 'investigate'. So, as you say, one would probably have to be very modest in one's 'theft' if one didn't want it to be noticed/caught.

My supplier has been getting 'lazy' (cost conscious?!) and seemingly couldn't be bothered to send a meter reader on two or three consecutive occasions, instead making (too high) estimates. Recently, still being lazy, they asked me for meter readings, which I provided - and which were substantially lower than the last of their estimated readings. Their laziness suddenly blew away, and a meter reader was on the doorstep a couple of days later!

Kind Regards, John

 

[eveares]

I am a bit confused by what you mean by this.

The only reason I say this is that every so often a teleswitch will miss a night for some reason, and then miss every night until a metering guy attends.

Also, my grandma has never had any electric heaters or any need multiple tariffs so the radio teleswitch is likely from the previous owners of her house.

Would the radio teleswitch still employ encryption/encoded data if it is from the mid to late 80's?[/quote]

 

[westie101]

How can you tell me that it has not been done?

A lot of years in the industry with regular contact with Revenue Protection departments along with regular updates of what to look for at meter positions.
If it had been done it would be common knowledge among staff

Oh and a lot of technical knowledge as to how stuff like this works

 

[eveares]

Maybe it has been done, but is so unheard of and so long ago, no one would know or care about the past.

Can you manually activate a radio teleswitch with your transmission, maybe but we will probably never know.

If legal???, it would be better to charge a large bank of batteries up over night while the rate is low, and then in the day time run a large inverter for your needs.

 

[ekmdgrf]

A lot of years in the industry with regular contact with Revenue Protection departments along with regular updates of what to look for at meter positions.

A LW transmitter doesn't need to be located right next to the meter

If it had been done it would be common knowledge among staff

Only if someone has discovered it being done.

Oh and a lot of technical knowledge as to how stuff like this works

So how does the radio switch work? Specifically, how does it guard against a replay attack?

 

[JohnW2]

If legal???, it would be better to charge a large bank of batteries up over night while the rate is low, and then in the day time run a large inverter for your needs.

I can't see why it should not be legal - batteries are conceptually no different from the bricks in storage heaters - which, after all, are the primary reason why this tariffs came into existence. I think the primary interest of suppliers (ultimately the generators) is, despite the fact that it reduces their revenue, in shifting demand from high-demand to low-demand times of day, regardless of how the shifted energy is used.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ekmdgrf]

If legal???, it would be better to charge a large bank of batteries up over night while the rate is low, and then in the day time run a large inverter for your needs.

I can't see why it should not be legal - batteries are conceptually no different from the bricks in storage heaters - which, after all, are the primary reason why this tariffs came into existence. I think the primary interest of suppliers (ultimately the generators) is, despite the fact that it reduces their revenue, in shifting demand from high-demand to low-demand times of day, regardless of how the shifted energy is used.

Kind Regards, John

I would imagine that the payback time on the investment in batteries and inverters would make the plan uneconomical.

Indeed it may dent the revenues of the power companies but balancing the load would also reduce the expenditure on generating equipment. It's not really economical to have kit sitting around idle for eight hours a day.

 

[westie101]

So how does the radio switch work? Specifically, how does it guard against a replay attack?

Along with a number of other constructive ways of illegally abstracting electricity, do you really think I would answer that question, particularly on a public forum?

 

[ekmdgrf]

So how does the radio switch work? Specifically, how does it guard against a replay attack?

Along with a number of other constructive ways of illegally abstracting electricity, do you really think I would answer that question, particularly on a public forum?

I think you've answered if perfectly. Thank you very much.

 

[JohnW2]

I would imagine that the payback time on the investment in batteries and inverters would make the plan uneconomical.

That's very probably true.

Indeed it may dent the revenues of the power companies but balancing the load would also reduce the expenditure on generating equipment. It's not really economical to have kit sitting around idle for eight hours a day.

Exactly. When one takes into account the potential capital cost implications of not having adequate 'peak time' generating capacity, it undoubtedly makes financial sense for them to accept reduced revenue from usage which is shifted to off-peak times.

Kind Regards, John

 

[eveares]

Here's some info: http://79.171.36.154/rts/tech_aspects.asp

And some more info: http://alancordwell.co.uk/Legacy/radio/teleswitch1.html

Would recommend at looking at BS7647 for more info.

 

[sjwkmje]

Here's some info: http://79.171.36.154/rts/tech_aspects.asp

Would recommend at looking at BS7647 for more info.

Having a quick read of that and obtaining BS7647 thinking back to my RF engineering days I can see a way it can be done. Actually there are two ways. One would involve getting hold of a meter but that is not particularly hard. You would need some SDR hardware and a bit of code. Its essentially a big man in the middle attack.

At 198 kHz there is hardware on the market that could be used. An RF test set would be ideal here but SDR hardware would also work. Agilent RF test sets allow you to modify modulated data packets and replay them. Just use a meter off the grid.

I am not advising people do it. I can just see from reading that it is possible. I do not advocate breaking the law.

 

[AndyPRK]

You don't need a meter. It's the radio switch you need to communicate with.

I'm sure it would be a lot easier to stuff a bit of wire into where the 2mm wire goes.

 

[plugwash]

Along with a number of other constructive ways of illegally abstracting electricity, do you really think I would answer that question, particularly on a public forum?

If there was protection against unauthorised tranmissions triggering the teleswitch wouldn't your employer want to tout their security.

The main reason I can think for refusing to answer the question is that you are well aware the system is insecure.

And a bit of googling basically confirms that. http://79.171.36.154/rts/tech_aspects.asp says each message only has 32-bits of data. That is nowhere near enough to implement proper cryptographic security.