Whats this setup? 4mm from meter!?

[ban-all-sheds]

Failing that, one can simply record and retransmit the whole transmission. Classic replay attack.

That's assuming that (a) you can find the signal and (b) that the system is so unsophisticated that it will respond to an identical re-transmission of something it's already received. Even I wouldn't design a system with that large a moth hole in it

Maybe not.

But given the truly lamentable 'security' that is sometimes put in place for systems which they know have to be secure, and which they know will be subject to attack, I would not be at all surprised to find that there wasn't any consideration given to security when they designed the Teleswitching system.

I can recommend subscribing to the Risks Digest. Eventually you'll stop being surprised, but for a while you will be gobsmacked at the stupidity and incompetence of some designers.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If it could be done, don't you think it had?

Not necessarily.

I can tell you it hasn't been done

That's quite believable. But if so then IMO that would only be because the sort of people who would want to steal electricity would not have the smarts to fake a signal, or were simply going to brute-force bypass the meter to run an indoor horticultural business for a few months, and those with the smarts would either not be the sort to want to steal a few quids worth of electricity, or would do the sums and decide that they couldn't get away with enough to cover the costs of breaking the code and faking a signal.

 

[JohnW2]

Maybe not. But given the truly lamentable 'security' that is sometimes put in place for systems which they know have to be secure, and which they know will be subject to attack, I would not be at all surprised to find that there wasn't any consideration given to security when they designed the Teleswitching system.

That may well be true. Indeed, as has been suggested by others, teleswitches have been around for a long time, and therefore many of them may well have been designed, if not built, in the days when implementation of decent security (at reasonable cost) would have been difficult or impossible.

Kind Regards, John

 

[eveares]

Anyone looked at the below link as in my revised earlier post:

http://alancordwell.co.uk/Legacy/radio/teleswitch1.html

It goes into how you can decode and read a radio teleswitches data and time/date.

There's 5 pages of it!, look for the "Next article" link at the bottom of each page.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

That may well be true. Indeed, as has been suggested by others, teleswitches have been around for a long time, and therefore many of them may well have been designed, if not built, in the days when implementation of decent security (at reasonable cost) would have been difficult or impossible.

Having read the articles linked to by eveares, and some of the results of this:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=radio+teleswitch+message+format

I'm even more convinced that there's no encryption of the messages at all.



Oh - and BTW - the whole system could stop at any time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_teleswitch#Transmitter_Obsolescence

Someone should warn the Royal Navy, lest they start a nuclear war...

 

[AndyPRK]

Humm interesting.

http://alancordwell.co.uk/Legacy/radio/teleswitch5.html


I didn't know the radio switches had a backup system of switching at default times if the radio signal should fail.

I won't worry about them valves after all.....

 

[westie101]

Quite amused, here we have a reputable public forum that has some members, hypothetically I hope, discussing how to commit a criminal act!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I thought we'd been discussing whether the teleswitch messages have any encryption, and if so what it is.

 

[ekmdgrf]

Quite amused, here we have a reputable public forum that has some members, hypothetically I hope, discussing how to commit a criminal act!

We can't possibly be doing that, since you have assured us that it is not possible. Therefore this is mere inaccurate speculation.

 

[eveares]

Are radio teleswitche's rare these days? - I don't know anyone who has one except my grandma.

 

[AndyPRK]

1/3rd of dual tarrif meters have them.

 

[FDJ]

That's assuming that (a) you can find the signal

Its FSK on the 198kHz from Droitwich.

Frank

 

[JohnW2]

That's assuming that (a) you can find the signal

Its FSK on the 198kHz from Droitwich.

Ah - in that case, it shouldn't take much finding

Kind Regards, John

 

[Lectrician]

Are radio teleswitche's rare these days? - I don't know anyone who has one except my grandma.

Usually built into the meter these days, although many meters now just have a digital clock. It is not uncommon to find some business tariffs with three or four rates during a day, and these are just controlled via a timer in the meter.

 

[JohnW2]

Usually built into the meter these days, although many meters now just have a digital clock. It is not uncommon to find some business tariffs with three or four rates during a day, and these are just controlled via a timer in the meter.

Are you talking about 'smart meters', or one's which are 'locally programmable' (or both)?

Kind Regards, John