When considering in or out:

[PBC_1966]

The politicians are not bound to honour the results of the referendum.

And if they don't get the "correct" result, I have absolutely no doubt they'll try to find every way to do so. Expect daily reports of how they've been engaged in furious debate and the EU has finally made some huge concessions, so that "the situation has now changed so much as to make the referendum result invalid," or some such nonsense. (In reality, the "huge concessions" will be carefully shrouded in terms which actually makes them nothing but very minor short-term concessions which will expire in a couple of years.)

Then because "the facts upon which the people voted in the referendum are no longer valid" they'll declare the result void and just carry on. Or possibly gear up for a second referendum, wasting even more millions of pounds on pro-EU propaganda in the hope that they'll finally get the "right" answer.

I think the average member of the electorate will realise their living standards are seriously declining, plus any travel inconveniences encountered, etc.

I think the average person can also see how the expense and bureaucracy of being in the EU is destroying Britain. It's taken a while, but I believe more and more people are gradually waking up to the fact that there's now just about no field in which the EU does not dictate the rules.

 

[Doggit]

If we vote to leave, it's not an automatic immediate exit, and the government can delay the issue of the exit notice for as long as they like. It has been suggested by one of the Leave campaigners that they're hoping the EU, will then offer a couple few more reforms, so I'm not convinced that all of the brexiters really have their heart set on getting out. But if we do get offered more reforms, then Cameron - or more likely his successor - will then push for another referendum - pretty much as Ireland did.

It turns out that the Germans are now proposing to form an EU army, and subjugate our own, and more worryingly, they want to be in charge of it all. This debate shouldn't be about immigration etc, it should be about what sort of country we want our children to live in when they grow up. Yes, we'll have a rocky road for a couple of years if we leave, but it'll give us a chance to prepare for the demise of the EU because even if we don't leave, the Germans will be the next country to demand an exit referendum

 

[swishy6]

I think the average person can also see how the expense and bureaucracy of being in the EU is destroying Britain.

What I've noticed recently is the fear factor kicking in. People who were all for out at the start are starting to worry about things from pensions to hyper inflation. I can't see the second happening any time soon, deflation more like. Generally though, folk are going to get a chance to vote on keeping the status quo or a taking leap into the darkness. Although I wouldn't bet my house on it I could take a pot shot at guessing the outcome.

 

[JohnD]

Since the outers keep making up their own numbers for "cost" and "benefit" which have been repeatedly disproved, they are now having to turn back to their basic fear of foreigners as a reason for resigning from the EU.

My own view is that if Britain wants to help develop and progress Europe, it won't do that by giving up its votes in the Parliament and its seats in the Council. It would be like Ireland trying to frame the UK's laws.

BTW I don't believe that Doggett has spoken to any of "the Germans" and is spouting fantasy. How close he thinks a unanimous vote is, I have no idea.

 

[PBC_1966]

Generally though, folk are going to get a chance to vote on keeping the status quo or a taking leap into the darkness.

I'm not sure it's a leap into the darkness, except for those youngest voters who've known nothing but an EU-dominated U.K. and who've been bamboozled by the pro-EU side into believing their forecasts of doom and disaster if the U.K. withdraws (which I really don't think all of them believe themselves anyway).

 

[PBC_1966]

My own view is that if Britain wants to help develop and progress Europe,

Does it? And what exact do you mean by "develop and progress" it?

 

[JohnD]

Or people who've been bamboozled by the anti-EU side into believing their forecasts of doom and disaster if the U.K. continues as a member (which I really don't think all of them believe themselves anyway).

 

[PBC_1966]

I would submit that in the long term, remaining within the EU is far more likely to end in disaster than withdrawing. The signs are all there.

 

[JohnD]

Or maybe the signs are all in your head. You just don't like the EU.

 

[PBC_1966]

While some people are so dedicated to what they see as some sort of ideological goal of a giant European superstate that they're willing to throw away freedom in seeking to reach that goal.

 

[JohnD]

Ah, what a lively imagination you have when making up these stories!

"If Britain were to vote to leave the EU in June would it regain the sovereignty that those in favour of leaving argue it has lost? The answer is no. The very fact that the UK is holding this vote proves that it remains sovereign. The referendum is not about sovereignty. It is about how best to exercise the country’s power."

"Membership gives the UK a say in the future of the European continent. It gives it a potent voice in the positions on global affairs of one of the world’s most powerful actors."

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fece7238-1071-11e6-91da-096d89bd2173.html

 

[Nozzle]

I agree with the proposition that staying in the EU is more likely to end to negative change than leaving it. Hence the name of the thread. Expressing an opinion cannot be confused with making up a story.

Nozzle

 

[JohnD]

Making up what's inside "some people's" heads most certainly is a story.

 

[EFLImpudence]

PBC

What is this 'freedom' of which you speak?
Individual freedom, economic freedom or National freedom?

Do you think that the countries and people of Europe (generally) are less free than the British (or the US)?
Do you think that, should we remain, Europe will insist the British are less free than the rest?
Either way, which freedoms are being restricted - the freedom to be insular or jingoistic?

 

[JohnD]

end in disaster

throw away freedom

destroying Britain

Nice to see the outers' vague threats of something terrible yet unexplained.

forecasts of doom and disaster

"Project Fear" by the Outists.