Whirlpool installation without Part P

[mathewb]

Hello all

This is a first post and a cry for help. Any words of wisdom, even if only to confirm I am a numpty, are appreciated.

I've just had a new bathroom installed including a whirlpool bath.

I've since been advised that I should have received a Part P Electrical Certificate for the installation since it's electrical equipment in a bathroom, and I'll also need this certificate if I'm intending to sell the house (which I am).

To be honest, I'd never heard of it hence never thought to ask for one at the time. Naively, I presumed that the plumbing firm who installed it would issue me with whatever was required. I've called them about it, they have responded to say the electrician is not registered for Part P and therefore cannot certify the installation. Upon further reading it seems another electrician cannot certify an installation for Part P unless they did the installation themselves.

My questions are
1. I'm screwed aren't I?
2. How badly am I screwed?

Answers of "yes" and "very" are expected, but if you've been in the same position and have some advice on how I could overcome this issue your comments would be most welcome

 

[ericmark]

If fitted before 2004 then no need for Part P.
Although the Electrician can't issue a "Completion Certificate" he can and should issue a "Installation Certificate" and armed with that a visit to the Council and payment of fee will likely mean you can get the "Completion Certificate".
If you can't get the "Installation Certificate" then next best thing is an "Inspection Report" and one should get a periodic inspection carried out on change of occupant and it is not written to if the new or old occupant should get this report so I would ask solicitor or estate agents advice on if you should get it done or new occupant.
However likely to provide a PIR (Periodic Inspection Report) will satisfy buyers solicitor. And likely that would be cheapest option. However they may want it carried out by a member of a scheme so do ask first.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

If the installer was not able to certify the installation, I can't honestly tell you where you lie as far as their legal duties/requiremnets.
The installation should have been notified to your local building controls or a private sector approved inspector's building control service or the company you used to install.
//www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:part_p

1) your not in good position, but legally you should call building controls or a private sector approved inspector's building control service and see if you can get it passed off via a reregulation certs.

2) your call to the above will answer that.

or get in a registered electrician and ask them if they are willing to reinstall it

 

[ColJack]

this raises an interesting point that I just thought of..

the area under a bath is technically outside of the zones of the bathroom if the area is only accessible by use of a key or tool ( ie screwed on bath panel )..

since Part P notification specifically defines "special location" thusly:

“special location” means a location within the limits of the relevant zones specified for a bath, a shower, a swimming or paddling pool or a hot air sauna in the Wiring Regulations, sixteenth edition, published by the Institution of Electrical Engineers and the British Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2001 and incorporating amendments 1 and 2.

then I would think that only electrical work within the zones is notifiable ( unless it falls into the other categories such as new circuits etc ).

however since most LABC's have their own definitions of Part P that they stick to, you're best off asking them what to do.. you might be able to get a "regularisation" certificate or whatever it's called if you explain that you had the thing installed in good faith that the company installing it would employ the necesary Part P sparky..

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

This is something that has come up before,
If the equipment is outside the zones and the feed is taken from say a an outlet the otherside of the wall, outside the bathroom, running straight to the underneath of the bath, is this then notifiable?

 

[ericmark]

As a P.S. it is the owners responsibility to inform the Local Authority Building Control (LABC) however most builders, and electricians will do that for you.

There have been some genuine mistakes where the electrician thought the whole job was under the control of the LABC but either the builder did not inform them or forgot to add electrics on the application.

However if genuine he will have issued an Installation Certificate or an Minor works certificate and if these are also missing then he's a cowboy.

Unfortunately the IET (was IEE) regulations are not law. However they can be used in a court of law. So not issuing a certificate is not a crime but any substandard workmanship is and he needs to prove that the work complied with regulations and without some record of test results this would be hard.

He is required by regulations to supply the person commissioning the work with the paperwork. So with a landlord and tenant it may never be seen by the tenant. In your case the Bathroom fitter should receive the paperwork from electrician and then he would pass it on to you.

If no paper work then may be a visit to trading standards will help.

Please do let us know how it goes as you are not the only one to have this problem.

And all the best luck.

 

[mathewb]

Thank you for the very helpful responses so far. The electrical equipment is indeed on the underside of the bath and covered by a panel. It goes directly under the floorboards and connects to the power supply outside of the bathroom in the hall.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

As a P.S. it is the owners responsibility to inform the Local Authority Building Control (LABC) however most builders, and electricians will do that for you.

No - the wording of the law is quite clear, in more than one place it talks about the person carrying out the work, and there are several other places where it is clear that that can only mean what it literally says and where interpreting it to mean "owner would be complete nonsense.

Also the Govt's official guide to the Building Regulations says that it's the builder's responsibility.

 

[ericmark]

Thank you for the very helpful responses so far. The electrical equipment is indeed on the underside of the bath and covered by a panel. It goes directly under the floorboards and connects to the power supply outside of the bathroom in the hall.

It would seem Part P completion certificate is not required then. However you should still have either a Minor Works or an Installation Certificate and anyone doing the job can fill in those. If you did it you could fill in the form.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Thank you for the very helpful responses so far. The electrical equipment is indeed on the underside of the bath and covered by a panel. It goes directly under the floorboards and connects to the power supply outside of the bathroom in the hall.

My local building controls would tell me that was acceptable, providing a key or tool was needed to remove panel and would not need to be notified. I can't say this would be true of all local building controls.

 

[ColJack]

that's what I said above..

since I don't do domestic I've never had to notify anything so don't know from personal experience, but from reading it, anything outside of zones 0, 1 and 2 doesn't need notifying, so that towel rail on the opposite side of the room from the bath / shower doesn't need notifying ( providing it's outside of zone 2 )...?

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

did someone say something

 

[flameport]

A whirlpool bath surely is notifiable, as it is a complete unit installed as one item. Presumably it has controls on it which are accessible?
Rather different from a separate shower pump which just happens to be located behind a panel under a normal bath.

As this is a 'new' bathroom, what other works were done? Quite likely that other items should have been notified as well (not just electrical either).

 

[mathewb]

A whirlpool bath surely is notifiable, as it is a complete unit installed as one item. Presumably it has controls on it which are accessible?
Rather different from a separate shower pump which just happens to be located behind a panel under a normal bath.

As this is a 'new' bathroom, what other works were done? Quite likely that other items should have been notified as well (not just electrical either).

Whirlpool bath was installed in place of an existing regular bath, a standalone shower cubicle was removed and the shower itself has been put back in to make a combined shower-bath, shower screen added, loo and basin replaced; room has been completely re-tiled as well.

 

[ericmark]

As a P.S. it is the owners responsibility to inform the Local Authority Building Control (LABC) however most builders, and electricians will do that for you.

No - the wording of the law is quite clear, in more than one place it talks about the person carrying out the work, and there are several other places where it is clear that that can only mean what it literally says and where interpreting it to mean "owner would be complete nonsense.

Also the Govt's official guide to the Building Regulations says that it's the builder's responsibility.

It would seem Part P completion certificate is not required then. However you should still have either a Minor Works or an Installation Certificate and anyone doing the job can fill in those. If you did it you could fill in the form.
I hope you are right. However doing work for the Disabled they get Part P free of charge and the Applicant has to be the person with the disability which is clearly not the electrician doing the work.

This has always been a criticism that the LABC don't issue a permit to work so if the owner, builder, or occupant says they have applied to building control you as the electrician can't be 100% that they have.

For a full blown planning permission it is on line but not for Part P.

It is also a problem where a larger project is undertaken which will be under the control of the building inspector that the fact that the electrics are to be completed by a person not a member of a scheme has not been made plain and only once completed and the completion certificate is issued is it found the electrics were not included.

To me where this happens it is totally down to the council and their lack of a permit to work system. However does not really matters who's fault the council are a law unto them selves and will do as they see fit.

Phrases like "(3) Where this regulation applies, the owner (in this regulation referred to as “the applicant”) may apply in writing to the local authority for a regularisation certificate in accordance with this regulation, and shall send with his application—" make me think it is the owner who has the responsibility.

As I say it would be nice if one was not responsible as the owner but where work has to be corrected it is the owner who is responsible as of course the builder could cease trading but bad workmanship still needs correcting and it is considered there is value in the building.

We that is my Father and I when his builders ran off into Mid Wales were told in no uncertain terms by the council that we had to correct the builders work and we should have ensured he had registered the work and although we could try taking the builder to court at the end of the day my dad was responsible for getting it all put right.