Who Needs 17th Edition?

[Ellogg]

All Right All

I have looked for help on the above issue and cant find any, sorry if I have missed it on the site.

Anyway want to know if being a, lets put it, industrial spark working in factory on robots and cabinets etc. i am required to be 17th edition trained. I have got my 16th edition from my appenticeship in 2000. Only asking because want some hard evidance to push my employer to pay for the 17th edition.

Thanks in advance

Ellogg

 

[Bill Stickers]

Do you ever design installations, or do you work to plans etc?

Do you work on your own, or are you supervised / mentored by people trained to the 17th ed. regs?

 

[Ellogg]

The work done is not domestic but sometimes involves 3-phase, 240V & 110V, working inside cabinets changing relays and motor drives. Non of the other employees even supervisors are 17th edition trained. Plans are followed by means of hard wire diagrams.

Thanks

Ian

 

[Spark123]

Similar to the sort of work we do, however we are currently on the waiting list awaiting the 17th edition update course. I suppose you can argue that working to a current british standard assists you in ensuring compliance with the electricity at work regulations which are mandatory, a good working knowledge and a &G2382 qualification can assist in proving competency.

 

[Ellogg]

Sparky123

I may use your lovely quote when requesting the course that sound like no one would have a come back with rejecting the request.

Fantastic lovely wording

Thanks

Ian

 

[Spark123]

Feel free
I know how to scam a good course

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I suppose you can argue that working to a current british standard assists you in ensuring compliance with the electricity at work regulations which are mandatory, a good working knowledge and a &G2382 qualification can assist in proving competency.

Or you could argue that as the EAWR have not changed then if working to the 16th produced compliance with them last year then it still does today. And if a person met the competence "requirements" via 16th qualifications then he does not lose that competence just because there is a new version out...

(Who will be the first to spot the flaw in that? )

It might also be worth looking at any guidelines from organisations like JIB, IET, AMICUS etc to see if there are best practices for re-validating qualifications every X years.

But look smart - one of the first things companies cut in a recession is training.

Ellogg - do you ever work on the premises wiring as opposed to the things just directly associated with the manufacturing process, e.g. sockets & lights in the offices? Are there reception/loading/etc areas where non-employees might be present?

 

[NotHimAgain]

The first consideration should be is the work you do within the scope of BS 7671. So you need to read regulations 110.1 (things that are in) and 110.2 (things that are out).

110.2 (xi) excludes "Electrical equipment of machines covered by BS EN60204".

Next, if your work is within the scope of BS 7671, do you need an upgrade course? This can be turned into a very difficult question . The simple answer, for most, is do an update course and avoid any hassle that may come from not having done one (BTW - I do (occasionally) teach these courses - so I would say that wouldn't I ).

Should you do a course if your work comes with in the scope of the EWR? - IMO only if your work is within the scope of BS 7671.

Note that compliance with BS 7671 does not guarantee compliance with the EWR - it is only LIKELY to achieve compliance for electrical installations that are within the scope of BS 7671.

Finally - I have completed a 16th Edition course, and work to the 16th was considered to be safe, so there is no need to upgrade - ah, that old chestnut .

Well let's look at it in terms of the EWR (similar arguments can be used for domestic work) - I said above that BS 7671 is LIKELY to achieve compliance with the EWR - so when might it not?

Well take Regulation 8 - this basically says that you must not electrocute people. BS 7671 bases some of its shock protection requirements on the data in IEC 479 (BS PD 6519). This contains the data to produce the 'famous' touch voltage curve. Now this curve only claims to provide protection for a percentage of the population (factors such as health etc come into this), but EWR 8 is absolute and does not accept that some people can be electrocuted .

There is a defence in Regulation 29 in which, provided you can prove that you "took all reasonable steps and exercised all due diligence to avoid commission of that offence" - you MAY get off .

Now, (and this is the punch line) - the 17th Edition has changed the way disconnection times are applied and has altered some of the timings. This is to improve safety and so it should mean that a 17th Edition installation is "safer" than a 16th Edition one (not a lot - just a bit ).

Explain to the judge how not knowing about this meets the defence regulation .

 

[ban-all-sheds]

(Who will be the first to spot the flaw in that? )

The early bird wins the prize.

Ellogg - it's unlikely I know, but if someone was injured or killed because one of you did something that was OK under the 16th but is now considered not OK your employers would be on the back foot when it came to showing that they took all reasonable steps etc.

 

[davelx]

All Right All

I have looked for help on the above issue and cant find any, sorry if I have missed it on the site.

Anyway want to know if being a, lets put it, industrial spark working in factory on robots and cabinets etc. i am required to be 17th edition trained. I have got my 16th edition from my appenticeship in 2000. Only asking because want some hard evidance to push my employer to pay for the 17th edition.

Thanks in advance

Ellogg

Personally I don't think you need the course - just study the regs and do the exam. Nothing about the way electricity works has changed - so if you have the understanding of the basic principles you should be fine (and if you don't you should not be an electrician!).

(I do understand that some people can't learn just by reading the books, in which case, of course go for the course).

 

[ericmark]

Bill Stickers has good point as to if required.
And you Ellogg also have a good point as to no one trained.
And some other good points raised but who teaches the lectures? In the main they read the big red book and the exam only shows you too can read big red book as long as the book is available for anyone to check on the new requirements then as to having to be sent on a course for someone to read it to you is not really required.
What is required is some proof that you are aware it exists and this is normally covered with a “Tool box talk” where the responsible person gathers everyone together and tells everyone what it says in first few pages about changes then gets everyone to sign to say they were at the talk. And that’s all the firm has to do but any good firm would send you on course also any good electrician will ensure he goes on course I had to pay for my own and also paid for my son as well as firms know with that bit of paper it is easier to swap jobs and I have never been asked to show any qualification once working only to get job in first place.
And only reason I did course is college will not allow exam only as failures show up on league tables.
Eric

 

[NotHimAgain]

davlx wrote

Personally I don't think you need the course - just study the regs and do the exam. Nothing about the way electricity works has changed - so if you have the understanding of the basic principles you should be fine (and if you don't you should not be an electrician!).

In so far as we actually understand how electricity 'works', as you say, nothing has changed. However, the application and detail of electrical safety measures to be applied to installations has changed, and in some areas this change has been substantial.

Now if you can simply read through BS 7671 and pick up all of these changes and appreciate their significance - well your a better man than I am Gunga Din .

ericmark wrote

And some other good points raised but who teaches the lectures? In the main they read the big red book and the exam only shows you too can read big red book as long as the book is available for anyone to check on the new requirements then as to having to be sent on a course for someone to read it to you is not really required.
What is required is some proof that you are aware it exists and this is normally covered with a “Tool box talk” where the responsible person gathers everyone together and tells everyone what it says in first few pages about changes then gets everyone to sign to say they were at the talk.

Who teaches the teachers - I couldn't speak for college lecturers, I haven't been one for years. In my case I attended a week long seminar before BS 7671 was released (we had pre-release copies of the final draft). A group of us discussed every regulation and on the last day someone from JPEL/64 came along to discuss any questions we had.

Even after all of that I am still discovering new angles that need to be addressed.

So IMO a "Tool box talk" doesn't come near I am afraid.

So does an update course - well that very much depends on how you approach it and how well it is delivered. Unfortunately cost constraints usually severely limit the time available and this means that most courses are only a cursory review. However, they can stimulate interest and if this leads to further study / investigation some benefit will result.

Do you have to do an update course, NO you don't actually have to have any paper qualifications. Is it advisable - IMO yes (and whilst I do teach some - usually for large companies, in house - I don't depend on the money - honest )

 

[ezekiel]

just to add - i read the big book (more than once) then booked exam only at £80 and passed:
as pointed out earlier a lot of the private training centres are charging in excess of £500 to teach you to read (comes in a lot cheaper via college route)

also two guys on the course who had sat the three day course failed the exam

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Now if you can simply read through BS 7671 and pick up all of these changes and appreciate their significance - well your a better man than I am Gunga Din .

You're assuming an appreciation of the underlying significance of the original regs then?

Does 2381 and its successors teach that, or does it just teach you where to find things in the book?

In my case I attended a week long seminar before BS 7671 was released (we had pre-release copies of the final draft). A group of us discussed every regulation and on the last day someone from JPEL/64 came along to discuss any questions we had.

Ooh imagine the fun : "OK - I'll just lock the doors and then we can talk about the requirements for high-integrity cpcs in ring final circuits...."

So does an update course - well that very much depends on how you approach it and how well it is delivered. Unfortunately cost constraints usually severely limit the time available and this means that most courses are only a cursory review.

See my Q about how cursory 2380/2381/2382 courses and examinations are anyway...

 

[NotHimAgain]

IMO - The whole area of education and training for many of the 'trades' is a mess. We used to have a reasonably good further education system but successive governments have allowed it to wither on the vine. They would rather send as many as possible - apparently with little regard to suitability - to university so they can emerge with a second rate degree that will not aid them in a career.

The 23xx courses came along after I had left the system but I used to teach them on a part time basis. They are update courses that should only be used for that purpose, but some seem to think they can be used as a substitute for the full course - whatever that is supposed to be now.

Rant over and no disrespect intended to anyone currently trying to progress through the system, but IMO it needs a lot of improvement.

BTW - You wouldn't have enjoyed the seminar BAS - I won all the arguments .