Who you gonna call?

[MisterFish]

I have for a few years now been repairing, (rather than restoring), a three story Victorian house. I am going to fix the entire top floor as the next project.

In two of the rooms the floors slope off quite badly downwards towards the wall. In one room they run off towards an internal wall in the other towards a wall that is internal in as much as the roof eaves are beyond it.

I had a builder and a specialist flooring guy in and they both recommended plywood over the floorboard and then a self levelling compound. This I don't want to do in case I ever need to get under the floorboards for access to wiring or piping. In truth I actually think that is a bodge rather than a repair. I also think that that solution has the potential to come back and bite me if and when it gets worse and maybe the floor goes through.

I guess I could go with furring strips on the joists but that may well not address the underlying problem either. I could also, I suppose, rip out the entire floor, joists and all and replace them. Trouble is I am living in the house and that would mean taking out the ceilings on the first floor which would be a complete nightmare.

Having spent a lot of time considering all this I think that even properly diagnosing the problem, let alone designing and performing a repair is probably beyond my DIY skills. What I am looking for therefore is a proper assessment of the situation by a competent person and a sensible set of options for repair.

Given that builders and flooring specialists have no ideas beyond the above quick fix, I am not sure who to call who might have the necessary skills to diagnose and suggest a sensible way forward.

What would you guys do?

 

[oldbutnotdead]

How much bounce is there in the floors- if they feel fairly solid then it's probably due to movement/settlement over many many years and unlikely to be a problem unless you start putting jacuzzis in. Any large windows in the walls supporting the joists- may be timber lintels have sagged.

I've got a similar issue in my wee project- (also Victorian or previous)- one corner of it sunk by about 70mm when everything else was fields so there's a hellish runout on the joists. I'd go (and will be going with) furring strips or more likely 4 x 2 sistered to the old joists to give me a level surface to refix the floorboards to. While I've got the boards up I'll be having a better look at the state of them- ends look OK, no sign of worm or rot anywhere but you never know. And stick some noggins in as well- they'll help stiffen the job up.

If you are lucky then the floorboards will be square rather then tongue and groove- lucky because it is much easier to lift them without wrecking them. Flip side is you'll probably find the boards are not flat on the underside but roughly chiselled to sit true on the joists. I'm contemplating either buying a thicknesser or taking them to my friendly local timber merchants for them to square them up.

Ply and SLC- if you're flogging the place then do it (relatively cheap and easy), if not I'd agree with your bodge assessment.

 

[RogerBoyle]

+1 As above.
If your floors are not bouncing and feel solid then its probably movement/settlement.
The fix that the builder and flooring guy gave you is the cheapest and quickest way of fixing it but yes its not the best idea
What you would be better doing is lift your flooring boards and check where your joists are supported to eliminate or fix any issues. Then either lay new joists or furring strips on top of the existing joists and re-lay the flooring ( I personally would just get new flooring) If you used the furring strips on top of the existing joists then you would be spared the cost of replacing the ceilings. (if you were careful lol )

 

[MisterFish]

Thanks for your replies guys

Okay. Two things.

Firstly there is some bounce in the floor. What does that tell us?

and secondly ... If I wanted to get it professionally looked at and given that I have had a builder and a flooring specialist in to look at it and neither seemed to have a clue, (they didn't even lift a floorboard), who would I contact for a more professional appraisal? ... Would you get an achitect? (Don't they just draw new build?) ... A building surveyor? (Don't they just value houses for building societies?) ... someone else?

I'm honestly not sure which way to go.

 

[RogerBoyle]

The bounce can be down to several things Ranging from undersized Joists to rotten timbers at the walls. Without lifting some of the floor boards and actually having a look its impossible to say 100% what the trouble is. A good builder will do all this for you but if your happy enough you can always lift a few boards your self and have a look. You will see if the joists are moving or are rotten or need re-packing with slate or are indeed undersized etc. etc.
Where did you hear about the builder and flooring specialist from ????

 

[oldbutnotdead]

If you know of (or can find) a good carpenter, they might be your best bet.

But everything hinges on finding out what the truth is with your joists. You definitely need some floorboards up (or drop the ceiling below which might be cheaper), investigate where the joists go into the wall (look for signs of rot or worm, look for signs of movement in the wall leading to joist pockets being enlarged, get someone heavy to walk about on the floor and see if there's movement at the ends as well as deflection in the middle of the joist). Measure the joist deflection (tape measure hanging from ceiling below floor past a solid object (eg a table) in the room below. Measure with no-one in the room above, measure with 2 or 3 persons in the centre of the room above. See if the deflection is within modern requirements. Bounce/deflection unless extreme is subjective- if you're staying there long-term then it is up to you how much you can tolerate

Also measure the joists and the joist centres and compare them with current span tables. And have a look along the joists, see if there's any twisting going on (and if any noggins have been fitted). Also see if they've been butchered by electricians and plumbers (notches and holes not in the permitted zones, oversize notches, oversize holes).

Noggins will stiffen the floor quite a lot and reduce the bounce and deflection. To be fair, so will 1" ply screwed to the joists. Repacking the joist ends (if needed) will reduce bounce and general movement.

Lifting the floorboards (depending on what type of floorboards you have) can be quite destructive. As earlier, it is very difficult to remove T & G floorboards without damaging them & replacement T & G will cost you about £15 per square metre to replace. Square boards are easier with the right tools.

Replacing the joists will be a right pain. You won't be able to pocket them into the walls so you will either have to fix wall plates or joist hangars- if the problem is to do with movement in the walls and/or failed mortar then that'll be a chore as well since your wall plate will be running right in the area full of holes. if your rooms are large you may find current required dimensions for joists a bit excessive.

How much runout are we talking here? On my wee scheme one room (is mentioned) drops 70mm across 4m and is very bouncy (10mm centre deflection) which I find excessive and will be doing something about. The landing drops 20mm across 2 metres (1mm deflection) which I'm planning on living with. One of the other bedrooms drops about 35mm across 4m with 4mm deflection which I'm planning on living with (that one is floored with T & G so would be much more of a pain to sort out).

 

[MisterFish]

Well. Lots to think about there. Thanks guys. Really helpful. Thanks

 

[WabbitPoo]

honestly, once you lift all the floorboards out of the way, you'll find the while thing a lot less daunting.....its the unknown that's putting you off. Grow a pair and get pulling! Anything else is a bodge

 

[MisterFish]

Thanks for that WabbitPoo (??!!??)

Do you think that just gungho-ing it will also help me get girls and stop bigger boys kicking sand in my face at the beach?

 

[WabbitPoo]

Yes.

 

[MisterFish]

I had a feeling you might.