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ChrisFrost
It's not so much the quality as the robustness of connection with regard to the data rate. Copper will always beat wireless as a way to connect.
Whole house audio installation. help please?
- Thread starter adam03
- Start date
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thatbloke
I see what you mean so , do these expensive toys have problems streaming large files? I would have thought coming in at a few grand per unit they would have sorted any slow file transfer issues before letting them out on the market.
Edit , just asking because I am tinkering with the idea of having a digital source for music and was considering building a PC based player with either Boxee or WMC , The more I looked into it the more benefits I can see from having the dac separate from the server , unless I build an very quiet PC.
I never really considered streaming anything up until now.
Edit , just asking because I am tinkering with the idea of having a digital source for music and was considering building a PC based player with either Boxee or WMC , The more I looked into it the more benefits I can see from having the dac separate from the server , unless I build an very quiet PC.
I never really considered streaming anything up until now.
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ChrisFrost
Again you're taking the wrong view. It's not the gear.... it's wireless networking... and it's crap.
The only reason it works is that the receiving device usually buffers the incoming signal so there's enough of a reserve to cope with the dips in wireless network speed.
The wireless network infrastructure we all take for granted is based on an open access frequency band. In other words there are lots of devices that can potentially compete for the same frequency space. These include: digital cordless phones, baby monitors, wireless CCTV cam links, some wireless doorbells, bluetooth devices (your mobile phones, Sony PS3 remotes, wireless keyboard & mouse), TV senders, wireless rear surround speakers, radio controlled models, RFID, comm-links, and don't forget wireless computing and wireless music systems...and the list goes on and on and on.
Then there's the device that don't use 2.4GHz for comms but still interfere with it. The worst culprit in your home is the humble microwave oven which stomps all over bands 2, 3 & 4 when in use. You also have potential interference from some lighting devices.
Now look at the way computing uses the wireless bands for b/g networking. How many potential channels can you choose from?.... Answer: 11 normally. Except it's not 11 because of sideband interference. Channel 1 bleeds over chnls 2 and 3. Similarly Ch6 bleeds over 4, 5, 7 & 8... and Ch11 bleeds over 9 & 10. So in actual fact you've got just 3 channels to choose from: 1, 6 & 11.
So far we've looked at all the competing sources for one home in isolation. Now consider what happen when you have neighbours using wireless devices too, and they've got wireless networks, music systems, baby monitors, cordless phones etc etc etc ........Do you get the picture now?
The fact that stuff works is a minor miracle.
I only use wireless where there's no other hard-wired option. Even then I'll only do it after taking a wireless survey which shows the frequency spectrum on site and all the noise generated from competing wireless devices. I do this because I know two things for sure...
1) the number of wireless devices in use in and around a customers home will only ever increase
2) the majority of customers and their neighbours have no idea how best to share the limited channel space between then. They can't see wireless so it never occurs to them that someone else could be trying to use the same frequency band
It could be two/five or ten years time that a customer complains that the wireless devices I installed have stopped working reliably. At that point I can do another wireless survey and show them the A/B comparison. Then I'll hook up a long network cable and all will become well... until they get the bill for chasing in the cables that I told them they should have installed when the building was in construction. Sounds harsh, I know. But it's inevitable. That's why everyone should go copper whenever the have the chance.
The only reason it works is that the receiving device usually buffers the incoming signal so there's enough of a reserve to cope with the dips in wireless network speed.
The wireless network infrastructure we all take for granted is based on an open access frequency band. In other words there are lots of devices that can potentially compete for the same frequency space. These include: digital cordless phones, baby monitors, wireless CCTV cam links, some wireless doorbells, bluetooth devices (your mobile phones, Sony PS3 remotes, wireless keyboard & mouse), TV senders, wireless rear surround speakers, radio controlled models, RFID, comm-links, and don't forget wireless computing and wireless music systems...and the list goes on and on and on.
Then there's the device that don't use 2.4GHz for comms but still interfere with it. The worst culprit in your home is the humble microwave oven which stomps all over bands 2, 3 & 4 when in use. You also have potential interference from some lighting devices.
Now look at the way computing uses the wireless bands for b/g networking. How many potential channels can you choose from?.... Answer: 11 normally. Except it's not 11 because of sideband interference. Channel 1 bleeds over chnls 2 and 3. Similarly Ch6 bleeds over 4, 5, 7 & 8... and Ch11 bleeds over 9 & 10. So in actual fact you've got just 3 channels to choose from: 1, 6 & 11.
So far we've looked at all the competing sources for one home in isolation. Now consider what happen when you have neighbours using wireless devices too, and they've got wireless networks, music systems, baby monitors, cordless phones etc etc etc ........Do you get the picture now?
The fact that stuff works is a minor miracle.
I only use wireless where there's no other hard-wired option. Even then I'll only do it after taking a wireless survey which shows the frequency spectrum on site and all the noise generated from competing wireless devices. I do this because I know two things for sure...
1) the number of wireless devices in use in and around a customers home will only ever increase
2) the majority of customers and their neighbours have no idea how best to share the limited channel space between then. They can't see wireless so it never occurs to them that someone else could be trying to use the same frequency band
It could be two/five or ten years time that a customer complains that the wireless devices I installed have stopped working reliably. At that point I can do another wireless survey and show them the A/B comparison. Then I'll hook up a long network cable and all will become well... until they get the bill for chasing in the cables that I told them they should have installed when the building was in construction. Sounds harsh, I know. But it's inevitable. That's why everyone should go copper whenever the have the chance.
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thatbloke
Interesting stuff. In a large network I can see the problems, but to use a PC to serve one DAC in a living room system is as far as I would take it. Then again I would probably hard wire that anyway.
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ChrisFrost
It doesn't really matter if it's just one PC and a DAC. The problem is INTERFERENCE rather than network traffic. Is that concept something you're struggling with then; how the connection can be interrupted regardless of the amount of data flowing at the time. Are you finding that tough to grasp?
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thatbloke
No Chris , I am grasping it , honest. 
too true.
so, sky are agressively targetting the broadband market, and living in swindon, so are virgin media.
I've just swapped to sky, got their branded dlink wireless router, fire up inssider (free software) and sure enough there are 4 sky and virgin routers all using channel 5, all 3 doors up from me.
that's going to be messy...
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ChrisFrost
Yep. It's a similar story on my road too.
ohh. I can't believe it. I tempted fate.
woke up this morning, sky box isn't working. fired up inssider, and yep, another sky box has appeared, this time on channel 1, right where mine is. brilliant...
woke up this morning, sky box isn't working. fired up inssider, and yep, another sky box has appeared, this time on channel 1, right where mine is. brilliant...
Actually it's 13 in the EU, giving 1, 5, 9, and 13, with 20MHz separation. Not ideal, but it opens things up a bit.
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ChrisFrost
True, but it's a sticking plaster solution though isn't it. When you chuck in all the other issues of wireless: e.g. reducing range and higher channel numbers, poorer speed over distance, and a real data rate that's nowhere near the quoted throughput figures... well, it's a miracle the system works at all.
Before we get too carried away let me just say I use wireless myself. I've written this message on a wirelessly connected laptop. But at least I understand why some days it works better than others. When the wheels do come off at least I'll know why, which is more than can said for the vast majority of wireless users.
Plus one.
Out of interest, I tried walking about outside to see how far I could pick up my own G-standard signal. The answer is about 100 feet, via several solid walls and 2 fences. Not bad, I thought.
Carrying on, I found that one neighbour's network (they have helpfully set the SSID as their own name!) could still be detected, albeit with poor signal, well over 100 yards from their house.
The vast majority of people simply don't understand the physics of RF and when they hit a problem will often just buy a more powerful access point or higher-gain antenna, which just causes problems for everyone else.
If anyone thinks wireless is a thoroughly reliable way to get network packets around the house, they should see how good it is when their neighbour buys the latest uber-powerful "doesn't quite meet the standard" router off ebay and fills all spectrum within 100 yards with Xbox Live and bit-torrents. Even inside my house, whenever my neighbour switches on a pre-N standard router, it make my wifi very patchy and unreliable.
Buy a few boxes of Cat 6 and a patch panel, and never look back
I can probably pick your signal up from two hundred yards away. I can probably pick mine up from upwards of 500 yards with line of sight.
Unfortunately I have to run my transmit power higher than I'd like to get a signal into a conservatory. I was not granted the time or access to wire it up.
Unfortunately I have to run my transmit power higher than I'd like to get a signal into a conservatory. I was not granted the time or access to wire it up.
Squeeze box wouldn't be a bad alternative except for one glaring massive dumb flaw.... The need for a PC running server software 24/7 before you can stream your own content!!!
For me and my type of customers this is a deal breaker. Who wants to switch on and boot up their PC just to be able to listen to a track or two? It adds unnecessary cost and complication to an otherwise good product.
Slimserver can be installed on specific Netgear NAS drives, but why when other products work fine with a much wider variety without any special conditions. It's a problem that Logitec (makers of Squeezebox products) know about and they really need to fix it... I'm just not holding my breath on this one.
If one has the time and patience to trawl the info, then get under the hood of the various solutions, then be on hand to keep it all running if something changes then there are workarounds and stuff... but they aren't endorsed so any tech problems won't be supported either. If you want to go down that route then have a look this thread as a starter LINKYPersonally I'd just rather use a solution that works and get on with enjoying my entertainment.
Since I've been using this site for stuff I haven't got a clue about I thought I'd add something useful for a change
Firstly Chris I believe the SqueezeBox touch can now be used as a standalone server aswell. However, when I recently wired my whole house for AV I went the standalone server route. The Atom based server I use pulls between 13-25w in use and 1-1.5 in standby.
This is coupled with a Squeezebox receiver for each zone, four of which are driven by an STA-1508 multichannel Amp (powered on and off by an intelliplug connected to the server). The other zones distributed at line level and amplified either by my 5.1 Amp (living room) or the TV in that room.
This gives me:
1) Living room zone, powered by 5.1 Amp
2) Kitchen Dining Room zone, powered by TV
3) 2 x Bedroom zones with ceiling speakers, powered by STA-1508 in central hub. (En-suites for both bedrooms have ceiling speakers also, wired to same port on Amp, with a switch in each room and en-suite to disable the speaker).
4) 1 x main bathroom with ceiling speakers, powered by STA-1508 in central hub.
5) 2 x spare bedrooms, wiring run to TV point and ceiling. Ready for future use.
6) 1 x cable run to garden, powered by STA-1508. Haven't got the speakers yet
The above setup with 4 amplified zones and two zones using equipment I already had to do the amplification, can cost as little as £850 plus the speakers of your choice. You can bring the cost down further by using soft squeezeboxes, although syncing may not be perfect:
1) 6 x Squeezebox = £540 (£90/unit)
2) STA-1508 = £180 (manufacturer refurb, ~£350 new or STA-850D @ ~£250 is an alternative).
3) ER1402 = £99 (was on offer, ~£125 would be a more normal price for an equivalent specced machine).
4) Intelliplug = £5
5) Decent Audio Cable = £25
The system has been running along without intervention since install, several months ago.
At the time I was considering the Sonos route, but was looking at a cost of ~£370/zone (zp120's), £2200+ for my setup (again plus the cost of speakers). As the number of zones increases Squeezebox starts to make more sense then Sonos IMO. Especially if you are wiring to a central location and can use multichannel amplifiers, or other devices you already own.
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